# 27 dead, 18 children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050 "2012-12-14T18:38:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/181 "2012-12-14T22:45:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It is not because of what was written 250 years ago. You will not repeal the 2nd because the majority of citizens in US doesn’t want it repealed. Well, we’re certainly not going to let _you_ stop us from trying. Welcome to America! ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/182 "2012-12-14T22:48:13Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Well, we’re certainly not going to let _you_ stop us from trying. Welcome to America! Oh I wish very much that you do try. Watching you expend all the effort and get defeated will be very entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a587f6/32.png) [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lago_Ys-Transform)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/183 "2012-12-14T22:50:29Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The USA does have a problem with gun violence and gun fetishism, I’d agree. But that doesn’t entirely explain why it has such a jarringly high crime rate as opposed to other rich countries. Well. 1.) The U.S. does not have a jarringly high crime rate compared to other rich countries. In many cases it’s even lower. I’d worry more about being mugged in London than in San Diego, for example. But see caveat three. 2.) The United States has, well, **states** in which the crime rate are much higher (or lower) than other countries. Even with Iowa’s gun ownership rate, you are less likely to be murdered in Iowa than Germany. In Louisiana you are eight times as likely to be gun-murdered. 3.) Because of the United States’ high rate of gun ownership what violent crime (or suicides) that do occur result in larger deaths. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/184 "2012-12-14T22:51:30Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Oh I wish very much that you do try. Watching you expend all the effort and get defeated will be very entertaining. I’m not afraid of hard work. Best of luck to your side. You might want to keep **Crafter** “So some kids were killed, big whoop!” **Man** off your PR team though… ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/185 "2012-12-14T22:54:58Z")
> [@Mixolydian](#): > > As long as we’re ranting… > > Beyond the gun control issue, how about getting to the real reason this (and so many of the other violent killings and suicides in the past 20 years) probably happened - another individual on anti-depressants whose dosage or prescription changed. > > And guess what? All the victims’ families now get prescribed their own meds! Another win for big Pharma. There is no evidence of any of this except in your deluded thought process. Are you off YOUR meds? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/186 "2012-12-14T22:55:16Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > I’m not afraid of hard work. Best of luck to your side. You might want to keep **Crafter** “So some kids were killed, big whoop!” **Man** off your PR team though… You don’t get something, Kimmy. 2nd amendment advocates don’t need a “PR team”. There are enough gun owners in the country (47% last time I looked), and plenty of people (like me) who don’t own a gun but are dead against the repeal. Watching your futile fight will be entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/187 "2012-12-14T22:55:26Z")
America, _Please_ stop watering me. I don’t even _like_ blood. Love, The Tree of Liberty ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/188 "2012-12-14T22:57:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You don’t get something, Kimmy. 2nd amendment advocates don’t need a “PR team”. There are enough gun owners in the country (47% last time I looked), and plenty of people (like me) who don’t own a gun but are dead against the repeal. Watching your futile fight will be entertaining. Complacency … Music to my ears! Like I said, best of luck, brah. Maybe tomorrow, maybe 20 years from now. I can play the long game. Looks like you’re already content to rest on your laurels. Fine by me! ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/189 "2012-12-14T22:59:02Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Yes, actually, 9/11 works for me as an analogy. People reacted to it in a completely retarded way, that shows that they’re all a bunch of recreational victims. People from all over the country, who weren’t personally affected at all, were talking about how the event ruined their lives. Some people said they’d never fly again. THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING, etc. > > And what’d we get out of it? Months of weepy coverage. We all got to be part of the fun victim club. We got the Patriot Act. We got a ridiculous war in Iraq. We got new TSA security procedures. We gave a big victory to the terrorists, because after all, their reason to do this was our emotional reaction to it. Do you think the greatest generation spent years weeping and reflecting what victims they were after Pearl Harbor? By making it into such a big deal, by making it the worst thing ever THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING, we gave the terrorists the reaction they were after. > > So yes, basically, I feel roughly the same about 9/11 and stuff like this. Shit happens. Don’t get fixated on how it makes you a victim. Move past it. Don’t overreact to it. Don’t pass the patriot act. You make a very tempting point, and it gave me pause. But let me try a counterargument: terrorist attacks are extremely rare. So are mass shootings, granted, but gun deaths in general are NOT rare in the United States. If minor versions of 9/11 kept happening over and over and over, dribbled out over months and years, then that might’ve been a signal to start thinking about things like the Patriot Act. (Yes, it’s not a perfect analogy, since it’s easy to argue the Patriot Act was, and would always be, exactly the wrong way to deal with the problem, but I hope you get where I’m going.) As an aside that’s somewhat on the opposite side of the issue, I’m not so sure about my attitudes towards commenters in other countries who cluck their tongues and shake their heads and declare that such things would never happen in their country and how this proves that America’s a society in severe decline, etc etc. I mean, they have a point that I’m sympathetic to, but at the same time, I think there are complex historical, political, and social roots behind the American attitude towards guns (and health care and a lot of other things) that are far more intricate (and interesting) than “Americans are just barbarians and that’s all there is to it; change would be extremely simple if they just woke up and did whatever.” I’d love for it to be that easy, but obviously, it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/190 "2012-12-14T22:59:39Z")
Focusing on gun control would be the lifeline you threw the republican party, which would allow them to get back in power and cause much more damage than the lack of gun control would. It has become very obvious to the democratic party that gun control is a losing issue. You would do more harm than good to push it. ---
**Author:** ![Scougs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scougs/32/3158_2.png) [@Scougs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scougs)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/191 "2012-12-14T23:02:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It’s called the Constitution. A foreign concept for the other side of the pond, with its freedom of speech, and the second amendment. Well, I fail to see how the two are related. Cause right, if you can’t have guns, you can’t have freedom of speech either. I know a lot of you think you are the only truly free nation, but really. I reckon we have freedom of speech over here. And a guarantee of a lot of other basic human rights. All of which is taking away from the fact that a disturbed young man could quite easily get hold of a couple of handguns, and blow away twenty young children. ---
**Author:** ![Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a587f6/32.png) [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lago_Ys-Transform)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/192 "2012-12-14T23:05:47Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Focusing on gun control would be the lifeline you threw the republican party, which would allow them to get back in power and cause much more damage than the lack of gun control would. It has become very obvious to the democratic party that gun control is a losing issue. You would do more harm than good to push it. > [@me](#): > > The Democratic party doesn’t want to talk about gun control at all. And I don’t blame them. Personally, I would be tickled pink if Obama announced that he was going to automatically veto any legislation that pertained to tightening standards on guns. > > If this board is any indication, American gunowners are so butthurt and hysterical over their exploding dildos that they will willingly engage in any kind of brinksmanship if they are not continually soothed and ego-stroked over their penis replacements. And considering that we have much more salient policy points to address (like, oh, Climate Change) I consider the dozens of dead children a year a fucking bargain. You work with the citizenry you have, not the citizenry you wish you have. Even if they are putrid, histrionic, single-issue morons. > > Incidentally, this is precisely why I am enthusiastic about drone strikes despite being a bleeding heart liberal. Prove my cynicism wrong, SDMB. Prove me wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/193 "2012-12-14T23:05:52Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > It has become very obvious to the democratic party that gun control is a losing issue. A lot of people who vote Democrat don’t agree, seeing as how spree murders and dead children are sort of a losing issue and this situation doesn’t seem to be getting better as gun laws get more and more lax. ---
**Author:** ![Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a587f6/32.png) [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lago_Ys-Transform)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/194 "2012-12-14T23:08:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > A lot of people who vote Democrat don’t agree, seeing as how spree murders and dead children are sort of a losing issue and this situation doesn’t seem to be getting better as gun laws get more and more lax. Gun-owners sure aren’t becoming less hysterical, though. Wake me up when _that_ happens; then maybe we’ll be getting somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Dord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3be4f8/32.png) [@The\_Dord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Dord)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/195 "2012-12-14T23:08:47Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > That’s because you’re focusing primarily (or solely?) upon the relatively tiny number of awful things that occur in life and yourself and your friends and are ignoring all the good and wonderful ones. Try becoming a conservative and you’ll find that you focus on and appreciate the good and wonderful things in life and yourself and your friends and that you’re better able to keep the awful things in their proper perspective. > > I’m not kidding. Are you really going to start pissing all over this thread too? _ **Desfuckingpictable.** _ ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/196 "2012-12-14T23:10:03Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > A lot of people who vote Democrat don’t agree, seeing as how spree murders and dead children are sort of a losing issue and this situation doesn’t seem to be getting better as gun laws get more and more lax. Are they going to stop voting democrat because they’re not aggressive enough on gun control? No, pretty much everyone in favor of gun control is solidly in the democratic camp. The same isn’t true for the other side. There are a lot more pro-gun democrats than there are anti-gun republicans. You will alienate those democrats who consider it to be an important issue, while not actually gaining the support of anyone that supports gun control, since they’re already in your camp. You give the republican base legitimate ammo to get fired up about. You have the republican party on the rails, it would be absolutely moronic to start talking about gun control right now. You will lose far more voters for whom that’s a top issue to the almost nonexistant amount you’d gain. Republican strategists are jerking off right at this very moment at the thought of democrats taking up gun control as an issue again. Also, gun laws aren’t getting more and more lax, unless you specifically talking about concealed carry laws, which have conclusively shown not to cause harm to society. So I don’t know what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/197 "2012-12-14T23:19:49Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > You have the republican party on the rails, it would be absolutely moronic to start talking about gun control right now. You will lose far more voters for whom that’s a top issue to the almost nonexistant amount you’d gain. Republican strategists are jerking off right at this very moment at the thought of democrats taking up gun control as an issue again. Wow, this has really got your side spooked! Usually, these incidents only get you to the first stage (denial, e.g. “Pfffft. How many dead kindy-gardners? Just 20?”) and second stage (anger, "Well tough shit, hippy, cause take a fuckin’ look at this: Heller v DC) of grief over dying gun rights support. But this is the first I’ve seen it progress to the third, bargaining. “Hey Democrats, I’ll make you a deal. You drop this and your party will rout the Republicans forever!” So don’t worry, you’ll make it to acceptance yet! (“Maybe my dick ain’t the biggest, but it’s pretty good anyway! I guess I don’t need a gun after all.”) ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/198 "2012-12-14T23:23:20Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > That’s because you’re focusing primarily (or solely?) upon the relatively tiny number of awful things that occur in life and yourself and your friends and are ignoring all the good and wonderful ones. Try becoming a conservative and you’ll find that you focus on and appreciate the good and wonderful things in life and yourself and your friends and that you’re better able to keep the awful things in their proper perspective. > > I’m not kidding. Thank you for my 3,059th ‘‘WTF?’’ moment of the day. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/199 "2012-12-14T23:25:57Z")
Eat a dick, Gibbler. Your summarization of my behavior is inaccurate and your assessment of my emotion is entirely wrong. I’m actually far more afraid of giving the republicans power again in their current state than I am of any gun control activities. My paranoia about gun control is actually quite low - nothing substantial is going to pass in the current climate. However, the democrats have the republicans on the rails, and they could very well fuck that up. They pretty much always fuck that up. The Republicans need to be taken out to the woodshed to either regain sanity or be marginalized out of existance. Giving them the gun control platform would be the biggest mistake the democrats could have right now. In one fell swoop you would breathe new life into the republican party for no gain on your own side. That’s exactly the short of fucking move the democrats can pull off, though. You idiots have a cartoonishly inflated charicature in your head of gun owners and gun rights advocates. The ones in this thread have been level headed. The idea that we’re the hysterical side is ridiculous. I wasn’t in denial about 20 dead kindergarteners, I wondered why they mattered so much to you than the 27 people who died yesterday and the day before and the day before. If anything, you are the one in denial, you aren’t seeing the situation as it is. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/200 "2012-12-14T23:26:22Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If shit like this keeps up, that will change. We may not read a repeal, just replace the Supreme Court justices that fucked up royally with Heller. Since we’ve seen the last Republican president in our lifetimes, that’s a likelier route. Ah, yes, a liberal Supreme Court, that time-honored liberal solution to circumventing that inconvenient Constitutional amendment process. That’s the great thing about liberal supreme courts - the Constitution means whatever liberals want it to mean! Cool, huh? The framers should have foreseen the sort of skullduggery that would result in the scurrilous misinterpretation of their words and/or the flat out invention of intent that Supreme Court justices have engaged in since. Still, it’s a half-assed way for you guys to get anything accomplished since the Supremes can only rule on issues that come before it, so sweeping, all-encompassing change of the type an amendment would create rarely happen. Instead your fuck-ups come piecemeal, in fits and starts, and its highly unlikely guns will ever be banned to any significant degree in any of our lifetimes. You might be right about our having seen the last Republican president in our lifetimes though. For reasons mentioned in my last post, you guys have been busily manufacturing Democratic voters for the last fifty years with your crappy educational systems and turnkey children, enthusiastic support of illegal immigration, welfare and housing projects and their progeny, not to mention income-shifting and sex-targeted government-enforced giveaways like birth control and proposed giveaways like abortions. It’s obvious that the more losers and dependents you guys can crank out, the more votes you’ll have. I’m amazed that our elections are still as close as they are. I mark it down to the extraordinary pull of reason and common sense. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=11)