# 27 dead, 18 children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050 "2012-12-14T18:38:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/201 "2012-12-14T23:30:34Z")
In America, you give drugs to the crazies and then let them buy guns. What a country. ---
**Author:** ![Docta\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Docta\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Docta_G)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/202 "2012-12-14T23:30:41Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Ah, yes, a liberal Supreme Court, that time-honored liberal solution to circumventing that inconvenient Constitutional amendment process. That’s the great thing about liberal supreme courts - the Constitution means whatever liberals want it to mean! Cool, huh? > > The framers should have foreseen the sort of skullduggery that would result in the scurrilous misinterpretation of their words and/or the flat out invention of intent that Supreme Court justices have engaged in since. > > Still, it’s a half-assed way for you guys to get anything accomplished since the Supremes can only rule on issues that come before it, so sweeping, all-encompassing change of the type an amendment would create rarely happen. Instead your fuck-ups come piecemeal, in fits and starts, and its highly unlikely guns will ever be banned to any significant degree in any of our lifetimes. > > You might be right about our having seen the last Republican president in our lifetimes though. For reasons mentioned in my last post, you guys have been busily manufacturing Democratic voters for the last fifty years with your crappy educational systems and turnkey children, enthusiastic support of illegal immigration, welfare and housing projects and their progeny, not to mention income-shifting and sex-targeted government-enforced giveaways like birth control and proposed giveaways like abortions. > > It’s obvious that the more losers and dependents you guys can crank out, the more votes you’ll have. I’m amazed that our elections are still as close as they are. > > I mark it down to the extraordinary pull of reason and common sense. 🙂 One need only spend about ten minutes on this board perusing threads casually to learn that you are a complete fucking idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/203 "2012-12-14T23:34:31Z")
> [@Missy2U](#): > > This entire thread makes me very, very sad to be a member. > > I’m out. For awhile. You realize that this is about as sane and thoughtful as an internet discussion on this subject is going to get for a long time, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Scougs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scougs/32/3158_2.png) [@Scougs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scougs)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/204 "2012-12-14T23:41:34Z")
I’m out, too. I’ve tried, in the spirit of fighting ignorance, to put a UK point of view on this appalling act. Apparently owning guns is linked to being “free”. Apparently being able to pursue your hobby is more important than public safety. I’ll go back to the bafflement and head scratching. ---
**Author:** ![Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a587f6/32.png) [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lago_Ys-Transform)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/205 "2012-12-14T23:44:19Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > You idiots have a cartoonishly inflated charicature in your head of gun owners and gun rights advocates. The ones in this thread have been level headed. The idea that we’re the hysterical side is ridiculous. I’m sorry, but if something like gun ownership is so important to Americans that people are willing to credibly resurrect an entire party that they’d otherwise oppose, I’m forced to conclude that they’re wall-lickers. Butthurt, histrionic wall-lickers with no sense of proportion. We’re not talking about abortion or voting or prison sentences or any of that shit, we’re talking about **a gun**. A product. A product with a rich history throughout the United States and a product that I admit is **cool as hell** , but at the end of the day it is a physical good and nothing more. I am willing to listen to arguments as to why it would or would not be allowed. For example, even though tobacco kills way more people than guns could ever hope to, I am not going to think that someone is a moron for arguing that, say, public smoking bans should be lifted because it makes smokers really happy. And for no other reason. I But you know what **does** make me think that someone is a moron? If they are so hysterical over the idea of smoking that they’re willing to engage in ridiculous public policy brinksmanship to protect their sacred cow. It’s not the guns themselves that piss me off, it’s the attitude people have towards them. If you’re going to hold any public policy sacred cows that you’re literally willing to ditch all your other goals over, it’d better be some pretty epic shit. Like abortion or opposing war? That I can understand – even if I disagree with it. But the idea of **guns** being the line in the sand that income inequality, civil rights, climate change, and warhawkery wouldn’t otherwise be offends me. It makes me think of such people as putrid, immoral human beings unfit for serious public debate. Because you have a worse sense of proportion than a Dark Age Europe religious painter. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/206 "2012-12-14T23:45:27Z")
> [@The\_Dord](#): > > Are you really going to start pissing all over this thread too? > > _ **Desfuckingpictable.** _ If you put him on ignore, it’s like he’s completely evaporated into thin air. You’ll never have to read that fucking disgusting drivel again. Well, unless someone quotes him, but it’s a lot easier to scroll past because there isn’t so fucking much of it. I highly recommend it. My blood pressure and the logic meter he busted, have finally recovered for me. I’m so happy. And **Senor Beef** , I was talking about all the gun owners who swear they carry places even when it’s illegal to do so. You see tons of those claims any time something like this happens. Yet, with all these badasses out there, amazingly none of them are ever around to save the day. So, I was asking… where are they? Surely _all_ these rebels aren’t constrained by a little plaque saying “Guns prohibited.” ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/207 "2012-12-14T23:46:13Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > That’s because you’re focusing primarily (or solely?) upon the relatively tiny number of awful things that occur in life and yourself and your friends and are ignoring all the good and wonderful ones. Try becoming a conservative and you’ll find that you focus on and appreciate the good and wonderful things in life and yourself and your friends and that you’re better able to keep the awful things in their proper perspective. > > I’m not kidding. Quite possibly the single most retarded thing you’ve ever said. I’d be sad if I wasn’t so impressed. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/208 "2012-12-14T23:50:23Z")
> [@Missy2U](#): > > This entire thread makes me very, very sad to be a member. > > I’m out. For awhile. You won’t be missed. I’ve always had a low tolerance for bathetic bullshit. Conspicuous, sanctimonious “grief” never solved anything. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/209 "2012-12-14T23:50:41Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > And **Senor Beef** , I was talking about all the gun owners who swear they carry places even when it’s illegal to do so. You see tons of those claims any time something like this happens. Yet, with all these badasses out there, amazingly none of them are ever around to save the day. So, I was asking… where are they? Surely _all_ these rebels aren’t constrained by a little plaque saying “Guns prohibited.” I’m not aware of what percentage of people who carry guns doing so in illegal places. I had a carry license for years and I never carried to somewhere that was legally prohibited, or had signs asking me not to carry. So how many adults worked in this school? A dozen, two? If one of those two dozen people isn’t A) the holder of a concealed carry permit B) willing to carry every day at all times C) WILLING TO VIOLATE THE LAW to carry at their place of work all the time where one slip up gets them both fired and prosecuted AND D) an internet rambo claiming that they’d be the ones to save the day, then you can go ahead and paint all concealed carry holders with a broad brush? Your point is ridiculous. Are these “rebels” supposed to be randomly wandering around schools with an illegal gun at all times to satisfy you? We’re not talking about a mall where you might reasonably expect at least one person there to be carrying, we’re talking about a school with a few dozen adults who would be fired and prosecuted if they slipped up once and accidentally brandished their gun. ---
**Author:** ![bashere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@bashere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bashere)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/210 "2012-12-14T23:53:39Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s probably too late to inject a note of sanity into this discussion, but surely it is obvious that there’s far more at play here than gun laws? > > The USA does have a problem with gun violence and gun fetishism, I’d agree. But that doesn’t entirely explain why it has such a jarringly high crime rate as opposed to other rich countries. I think it obvious that if you want to reduce these sorts of things there are many other issues that need to be looked into. Stigmatization of mental and psychological illness is something that is long overdue to be addressed, and that remains a huge public health problem. You’ve got other crime-related problems as well, that might not apply to this particular incident but that affect crime rates in general; the USA is incarcerating insane numbers of people for no clear public good, the population and the media thatserves it seems at time to be almost wholly mptivated by fear and suspicion, the government is engaged in a war on drugs that accomplishes nothing, and I won’t even get into systemic racism. (And make no mistake, Canada has similar problems. I ain’t playing olier-than-thou.) > > A serious discussion of America’s crime problem isn’t\*\* just \*\*about guns. It might not even be mostly about guns. I pretty much just scroll through these threads looking for **RickJay** ’s posts. I don’t think his whole “let’s consider the issues as though they are complex and multi-faceted” approach is going to get any traction, but I like to know someone thinks that way. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/211 "2012-12-14T23:57:04Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Try becoming a conservative and you’ll find that you focus on and appreciate the good and wonderful things in life and yourself and your friends and that you’re better able to keep the awful things in their proper perspective. That must be why everyone on Fox News always seems so happy. ---
**Author:** ![Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a587f6/32.png) [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lago_Ys-Transform)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/212 "2012-12-14T23:58:38Z")
> [@bashere](#): > > I pretty much just scroll through these threads looking for RickJay’s posts. I don’t think his whole “let’s consider the issues as though they are complex and multi-faceted” approach is going to get any traction, but I like to know someone thinks that way. If you were going to ask me ‘how do we reduce the number of gun homicides in America’ gun control would be pretty far down the list. Somewhere between ‘daily recommended allowances of lithium and marijuana’ and ‘masculinizing knives in the media’. I’m not even really offended at the idea that gun control isn’t a really effective way to drive down gun homicides in the short or medium term. Because I actually agree with that. What I’m offended at is the suggestion that gun culture is **so sacred** to a subset of people in this country that we can’t even have the debate without them throwing a tantrum that gums up unrelated portions of society. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/213 "2012-12-15T00:05:13Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > That’s because you’re focusing primarily (or solely?) upon the relatively tiny number of awful things that occur in life and yourself and your friends and are ignoring all the good and wonderful ones. Try becoming a conservative and you’ll find that you focus on and appreciate the good and wonderful things in life and yourself and your friends and that you’re better able to keep the awful things in their proper perspective. > > I’m not kidding. I’m just curious, what good and wonderful thing did a conservative focus on today while the rest of us liberals were grieving over the loss of so many innocent lives? ---
**Author:** ![bashere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@bashere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bashere)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/214 "2012-12-15T00:06:12Z")
> [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](#): > > If you were going to ask me ‘how do we reduce the number of gun homicides in America’ gun control would be pretty far down the list. Somewhere between ‘daily recommended allowances of lithium and marijuana’ and ‘masculinizing knives in the media’. Um, actually, I think those are pretty good solutions. > [@](#): > > I’m not even really offended at the idea that gun control isn’t a really effective way to drive down gun homicides in the short or medium term. Because I actually agree with that. What I’m offended at is the suggestion that gun culture is **so sacred** to a subset of people in this country that we can’t even have the debate without them throwing a tantrum that gums up unrelated portions of society. I don’t believe myself to be disagreeing with you. I’m fairly agnostic on the subject of gun control. I think the shootings are a symptom of a problem. I think that shootings are common enough that maybe the problem ought to be considered, rather than just the symptoms. That said, I think that an awful lot of gun owner, particularly here, are saying something similar (but I’ve been on the internet since the September that never ended, so sort of tune out gun control threads - I’m not commenting on everyone in this thread) ---
**Author:** ![Missy2U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@Missy2U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Missy2U)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/215 "2012-12-15T00:09:15Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > You won’t be missed. I’ve always had a low tolerance for bathetic bullshit. Conspicuous, sanctimonious “grief” never solved anything. You are truly an idiot. And unfortunately, I’ve always had a low tolerance for morons who have NO IDEA what they’re fucking talking about and have no fucking idea what I’M talking about, you jackass. Good Lord - do you even READ for comprehension? Didn’t think so. So for me, into coventry YOU go. As for the rest of these idiots? Done. I’m even sorry I came back for this. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Dord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3be4f8/32.png) [@The\_Dord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Dord)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/216 "2012-12-15T00:11:18Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > If you put him on ignore, it’s like he’s completely evaporated into thin air. You’ll never have to read that fucking disgusting drivel again. Well, unless someone quotes him, but it’s a lot easier to scroll past because there isn’t so fucking much of it. I highly recommend it. My blood pressure and the logic meter he busted, have finally recovered for me. I’m so happy. Ignoring him doesn’t entirely solve the problem. Sure, if I had cancer I could ignore it, but then I’d die a few years later. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/217 "2012-12-15T00:17:37Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Thank you for my 3,059th ‘‘WTF?’’ moment of the day. Why was that a WTF moment? You’re an intelligent, highly educated woman. Why is it so difficult for you to grasp the point I was making? Look at what you said: > [@](#): > > I’m so F\*\*cking sick of politics. We’ve sunken so low as a people that we can’t even wait for children’s corpses to cool before we start arguing about gun control laws. Being right is more important than being human. This day has been disappointment after disappointment - in myself, in my friends, in humankind. We can’t even act worthy of what little comforts we are given in this life. I’m trying to think of a reason to stay on this godforsaken hellhole of a planet but nothing comes immediately to mind No, we haven’t sunken so low as a people that we can’t even wait for children’s corpses to cool before we start arguing about gun control laws. More than 300,000,000 live in this country, and I can assure you that the vast, vast majority of them did not immediately jump to arguing about gun control rather than commiserating over the deaths of those children. And how do you jump to “being right is more important than being human”? The need to feel one is right is a key element in _being_ human! Still, no is saying it’s more important to be right than to feel sorrow or regret over what happened. But the fact of the matter is that it’s pretty much a given that we all are horrified by what happened and there really isn’t much to be accomplished by telling that to each other over and over again, but some of us here on this board where politics get argued feverishly do feel that there are important points to be made pro and con with regard to gun control that this crime raises. But instead of recognizing that like the intelligent woman that you are, you view wrongfully as a telling flaw in human nature that contributes to your feeling that humankind is both worthless and hopeless. And then, instead of being happy about and grateful for the fact that you live in this wonderful country that people all over the world wish they could live in, where you are free of political dictatorship, tribal or religious terrorism, famine, and life in mud huts watching as your child slowly dies of hunger or some disease easily treatable here, and happy about the education you’ve received and the people you’ve dated and the husband you have and the restaurants you’ve eaten in and the movies you’ve seen and the drinks you’ve enjoyed and all the other happy and enjoyable experiences in your life as well as the people you’ve known and loved, you’re bummed out because in some way your reactions to something people said today wasn’t what you would have preferred, or because someone else said something you disapproved of, and now you view the entire planet as a godforsaken hellhole not worth living in, when in fact the world is full of wonderful, loving people going about their days providing for and caring for their families and loved ones, going biking and boating and going on dates and buying each other flowers and presents and giving gifts of love and smiling and laughing and enjoying this banquet that is life. People are intrinsically good. Everywhere in the world. As evidence I present [this journal account](http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=1&doc_id=2348&v=2eP) of one Australian woman’s bicycle trek across China a few years ago. Everywhere she went throughout China she was treated cheerfully and well by the locals she encountered, who were more than happy to assist her when she needed it, to fix her bike when it needed it (often while refusing payment), and were eager to hear tales of her journey and why she had chosen their country for her trip. Same when she got to central Asia and Russia. My main point is that there is a lot of good both in yourself and in the world, but you choose to focus on the negative and you let it overwhelm everything else to the point that it seems the negative is the only worthwhile thing to focus on, when the reality is that the good in life far, far outweighs the bad. It’s a liberal quality to focus on the negative and the bad and a conservative quality to focus on the good and the positive. In your case I think you’ve taken that liberal inclination way too far, and that’s why I said I think you’d be much happier if you were to become a conservative. 🙂 Life is a banquet. It really is. Especially here in this country. And here you are, starving to death. So, c’mon, let go and live a little. You’re not gonna solve any of the world’s problems - and you aren’t doing yourself any kind of favor, believe me - by getting so down on the world and or by getting so down on yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/218 "2012-12-15T00:18:50Z")
> [@The\_Dord](#): > > Ignoring him doesn’t entirely solve the problem. Sure, if I had cancer I could ignore it, but then I’d die a few years later. :smack: Talking to cancer does fuck all as well. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/219 "2012-12-15T00:20:12Z")
Hopefully, once Dems are properly ensconced in power they will be able to do the gun ban that all of us liberals secretly dream about. Of for the love of those halcyon days… ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/220 "2012-12-15T00:22:14Z")
> [@The\_Dord](#): > > Are you really going to start pissing all over this thread too? > > _ **Desfuckingpictable.** _ I really have to question the sort of mentality that regards a message intended to encourage focusing on the good things in life rather than the bad as “pissing all over the thread.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=12)