# 27 dead, 18 children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050 "2012-12-14T18:38:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/261 "2012-12-15T02:04:53Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > For the smug UK’ers, how soon you forget: > Michael Ryan > Thomas Hamilton > Derrick Bird Yeah, because massacres in the UK happen _all the time_, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a587f6/32.png) [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lago_Ys-Transform)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/262 "2012-12-15T02:08:32Z")
I would really appreciate it if people stopped using numbers from Cartooniverse’s misleading chart like they’re presenting some kind of rhetorical masterstroke. The United States has more people in it, of course there are going to be many more murders. The United States has an overall homicide rate of about 4.5 people per 100,000; that’s appallingly fuck-huge enough as is. And I don’t like it when idiots derail the conversation with their innumeracy, whether intentional or unintentional. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/263 "2012-12-15T02:10:30Z")
> **[A Guide to Mass Shootings in America](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map/)** > > Here is Mother Jones’ groundbreaking database, now documenting 144 public attacks since 1982. A guide to mass killings in the US since 1982 ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/264 "2012-12-15T02:11:08Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Yeah, because massacres in the UK happen _all the time_, eh? And they’re as common as dirt in the States? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/265 "2012-12-15T02:12:39Z")
> [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](#): > > I would really appreciate it if people stopped using Cartooniverse’s misleading chart like if it was a rhetorical flourish. The United States has more people in it, of course there is going to be many more murder. The United States has a homicide rate of about 4.5 people per 100,000; that’s appallingly fuck-huge enough as is. And I don’t like it when idiots derail the conversation with their innumeracy. 2.98 per 100,000, but what’s an extra 50% among friends… ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/266 "2012-12-15T02:13:31Z")
> [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](#): > > I would really appreciate it if people stopped using Cartooniverse’s misleading chart like if it was a rhetorical flourish. The United States has more people in it, of course there is going to be many more murder. The United States has a homicide rate of about 4.5 people per 100,000; that’s appallingly fuck-huge enough as is. And I don’t like it when idiots derail the conversation with their innumeracy. That chart was all sorts of statistical fail, without context and explanation, but it is how our American mind works. We want easy “proof” for our biases. Both sides of any issue do this and it makes both dies loose legitimacy. It’s a sad commentary on our blind reverence and intentional misuse of statistics. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/267 "2012-12-15T02:13:47Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > And they’re as common as dirt in the States? Oh no, you hardly ever hear of them. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/268 "2012-12-15T02:14:30Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Oh no, you hardly ever hear of them. :rolleyes: Well, if they were that common, we wouldn’t, because we’d be used to them. There’s a difference between them happening more often than in other places and them being _common_. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/269 "2012-12-15T02:15:38Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Well, if they were that common, we wouldn’t, because we’d be used to them. > > There’s a difference between them happening more often than in other places and them being _common_. Any comment would be superfluous. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/270 "2012-12-15T02:16:25Z")
I seriously don’t understand. Is the argument here that mass murder on this scale is a common occurrence in the United States? ---
**Author:** ![Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a587f6/32.png) [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lago_Ys-Transform)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/271 "2012-12-15T02:18:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > 2.98 per 100,000, but what’s an extra 50% among friends… According to Wikipedia it’s 4.2 for an overall homicide rate in the U.S. That was just one of the problems I had with Cartooniverse’s chart. Would you rather be shot to death or stabbed to death? > [@Leaper](#): > > I seriously don’t understand. Is the argument here that mass murder on this scale is a common occurrence in the United States? Silly Leaper, we’re not here to discuss lowering homicide rates – we’re here to discuss lowering the **mass murder rate**. Big difference. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/272 "2012-12-15T02:21:42Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Yeah, because massacres in the UK happen _all the time_, eh? No idiot. The point is that despite increasingly strict gun control they do continue to happen. This problem in America runs deeper than just guns. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/273 "2012-12-15T02:24:11Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > We had a magazine limitation capacity law from 1994 to 2004. Did it stop these incidents? You’re smarter than this. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/274 "2012-12-15T02:26:21Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > No idiot. The point is that despite increasingly strict gun control they do continue to happen. > > This problem in America runs deeper than just guns. No, butt nugget. The point is that the problem there is nowhere near the scale it is in the US. Sure, address the other problems too, but get rid of the guns while you’re at it, because they and the filth who keep doing this sort of thing have access to them. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/275 "2012-12-15T02:27:04Z")
> [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](#): > > Silly Leaper, we’re not here to discuss lowering homicide rates – we’re here to discuss lowering the **mass murder rate**. Big difference. SOME people are, but some aren’t. The chart comparison with other countries was just handgun deaths in general. Heck, you address homicide rates in this very post. So if you’re right, there’s a lot of crosstalk going on that’s obscuring the “real” issue. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/276 "2012-12-15T02:32:43Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > So fuck you and fuck this nonsense. These are real children, dead for no good reason. Maybe this or that gun law wouldn’t have saved these particular kids. But we all know there are perfectly reasonable laws that would reduce the carnage, reduce the number of people who will live their lives without a loved one struck down by gunfire. Someone please explain to me how a fear of the law & criminal punishment was going to deter a man who committed (by my count) 108 counts of murder, aggravated assault, battery, using a firearm in the commission of a felony, and then blew his own brains out. It’s not like there weren’t laws against what he did. How would another law have changed this situation? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/277 "2012-12-15T02:37:38Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > I seriously don’t understand. Is the argument here that mass murder on this scale is a common occurrence in the United States? I guess it depends on one’s definition of “common.” Some would say it’s common now, right-wing nuts insist it’s not all that common and pretend not to see what the fuss is all about. I say it’s more common than it needs to or should be. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/278 "2012-12-15T02:38:21Z")
I visited my three year old granddaughter’s pre-school class for the first time ever today. It was the occasion of her birthday. Then I found out about this and became slightly ill. Dear God please make it stop. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/279 "2012-12-15T02:40:38Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > No, butt nugget. The point is that the problem there is nowhere near the scale it is in the US. > > Sure, address the other problems too, but get rid of the guns while you’re at it, because they and the filth who keep doing this sort of thing have access to them. You should be smart enough to realize it won’t happen that way. When has America shown an ability to reasonably and comprehensively address an issue? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/280 "2012-12-15T02:44:53Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > You should be smart enough to realize it won’t happen that way. > When has America shown an ability to reasonably and comprehensively address an issue? I see the light now. You have convinced me that it’s not even worth trying. However, still I have some small hope that within my lifetime your guns will be taken away from you someday, and if it means “prying them from your cold, dead hands,” well I don’t really find those terms unacceptable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=15)