# 27 dead, 18 children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050 "2012-12-14T18:38:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/301 "2012-12-15T04:23:55Z")
There’s no point. Kimmy\_Gibbler has made it clear that he’s a psychopath for quite a long time. He just admitted once again that he doesn’t care about other people. That’s the exact same problem that Crafter Man has. It’s no wonder he doesn’t want us fighting with him. The only difference between **Kimmy\_Gibbler** and **Crafter Man** is that the former is a bit smarter and knows how to throw in a little bit of pretending like he cares. Fortunately for us, the cracks show in the facade all the time. For instance, you don’t fucking curse someone out while at the same time saying you are happy for them. The two concepts are completely in contradiction. You don’t think he’s going on about changing the second amendment because he actually thinks it could happen, do you? It just makes him look good, like he’s against the killings, while at the same time allowing him to blast everyone who wants to actually do something about it that might actually work. And now watch for him coming back and insulting me, another person with a mental disorder, because, despite claiming to be a lawyer, he’s never once been able to make a true argument when someone disagrees with him. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/302 "2012-12-15T04:27:01Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > “I don’t understand it so I’ll demonize it.” I totally understand it. I’ve shot guns before, in safe ranges, and I’m a damn good shot. I enjoyed the process of shooting, and gotten the thrill of the power and excitement of the explosion. And the whole neat feeling of firing. But it’s not a positive feeling, IMO. It is not something that should be indulged. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/303 "2012-12-15T04:27:20Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > And I wasn’t kidding when I said I’m sick of politics. I have been avoiding politics for weeks and I have been so much happier. I also have no particular ideological underpinning when it comes to gun control. I grew up in a house with guns and in the gun culture, I don’t like them, I don’t understand why people love them so much, but I don’t really care if people have them, either. My immediate thought when anything like this happens is that it underscores the need for comprehensive and competent mental health care in this country… however, the idea that this issue would be resolved with a simple policy change of any kind strikes me as ludicrous. I’ve studied social issues enough to know that they are extremely complex. And naturally I have to think of the kids I know who are exposed to constant violence and nobody ever talks about it, nobody grieves for them. When I think about what they go through every day, it makes me want to spit nails. Nothing we do will ever be enough to put an end to it. You know, it’s just one of those events that’s attached to so many different emotions and thoughts and attitudes that one can’t help but feel overwhelmed by a sense of negativity. > > I’m depressed today. I get melodramatic when I’m depressed. No hidden liberal agenda. Just the same old bullshit. Well, sorry you feel that way. The point though wasn’t that you’d change your mind on the shooting due to a simple policy change; the idea was that perhaps a different outlook on life would help you with appears to be an ongoing problem you seem to have - at least to me on the outside looking in and going only by what I’ve seen of your posts on this board - with depression and an overall pessimistic view of life that is impacting very negatively on your passage though it. Plus I felt I detected hints of suicidal ideation in your post and I’ve long had a belief that even if people aren’t serious about such thoughts, the more they give in to harboring them, the more acceptable, and therefore the more likely, they can become. On the other hand, you’ve just said you get melodramatic when you get depressed and perhaps it was just a melodramatic statement I was responding to rather than an intimation of honest intent. It was my hope that by getting you to think about the many good things that exist in the world you might be able to put the bad ones into a better perspective. It was never my intent that you should shrug off the shootings today and go merrily about your business. But at the same time, I don’t see where anything good is accomplished by dwelling upon and making yourself miserable over miseries of people who you don’t know and who are forced to live in terrible circumstances that you have no control over and can’t do anything about. There is a lot of horror that goes on, in this country and elsewhere all over the world. It seems to me that to dwell on it is a path to madness. But whatever. We’re all different and you seem to feel you get some sort of validation out of feeling the way you do about these things. Respond if you want, but don’t feel that you need to. I can see that your mind is made up. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/304 "2012-12-15T04:31:09Z")
I’ve never fired a gun in my life and couldn’t care less about them. Having said that, I don’t see guns being the real problem here. The real problem is: families who are too stupid, self-centered or just plain mean to care about their own kids’ problems even though everyone else can see them a mile away (so the rest of society has to deal with them.) I’m sure we’ve all met families like this who need a good kick in the ass. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/305 "2012-12-15T04:31:53Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > I totally understand it. I’ve shot guns before, in safe ranges, and I’m a damn good shot. I enjoyed the process of shooting, and gotten the thrill of the power and excitement of the explosion. And the whole neat feeling of firing. > > But it’s not a positive feeling, IMO. It is not something that should be indulged. I’ve not seen any evidence enjoyment of firearms is a concerning psychological indicator, enjoyment of setting fires for example or torturing animals is such a concerning indicator. Enjoying firearms is akin to enjoying fireworks, and I see no reason to assume it’s unhealthy. I think a lot of people, especially in the SDMB where so many are extremely anti-conservative and against anyone they view as being conservative a lot of anger is directed at “gun enthusiasts.” But in all reality, while I’ll agree a lot of gun enthusiasts are ridiculous, say incorrect things, assert specious reasons for owning firearms, trounce out laughable legal and philosophical arguments, they aren’t really a part of the problem. Gun enthusiasts tend to be white, middle class, and middle age. Because such hobbies are the provenance of that culture and age group. These aren’t people who by and large do either the spree shootings or even very many of the other homicides. When individuals from that demographic murder, it’s almost always their spouse, and spousal murder doesn’t at all require a firearm since you can do it behind closed doors in so many different ways. I’ve yet to see any compelling evidence that most of our spree shooting problem isn’t the result of mentally unstable young men as opposed to NRA gun enthusiasts. I understand people on the SDMB **don’t like those people** but aside from vague claims that “they create the culture where guns are prevalent” I don’t see a clear link between them and shootings. Also, I should point out I don’t “get” the enjoyment of shooting guns. I shoot guns to sight them in, because I need to do that to hunt. I find your anti-hunting stance bizarre. Hunting animals is as natural as sex or eating, and no more objectionable. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/306 "2012-12-15T04:33:48Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > No idiot. The point is that despite increasingly strict gun control they do continue to happen. > > This problem in America runs deeper than just guns. Yes, it’s the gun nuts. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/307 "2012-12-15T04:34:40Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > You realize that this is about as sane and thoughtful as an internet discussion on this subject is going to get for a long time, don’t you? Hahahahaha. A sane conversation would require no one getting emotional. This is the Pit where you are supposed to vent your negative emotions. And I’m not saying I’m above any of that. I know I’m overly emotional, and get pissed off easily. And I have no problem making an emotional argument. But don’t act like this is some sane conversation. This is a bunch of people bitching. This is recreational outrage. The added trollery just helps us get even more upset. This is catharsis, not a discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Moonlitherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Moonlitherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlitherial)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/308 "2012-12-15T04:36:57Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > Here’s a description of the gunman from the New York Times: > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?_r=0) > > Looks like another case of beta-male rage. Wait I thought it was his brother you diagnosed with beta-male rage? Can we please just fucking accept that we know nothing at all about the killers motivations and we won’t for days. The media are as usual speculating and presenting it as fact and in the process are making things worse for the families of the victims. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/309 "2012-12-15T04:42:12Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > You won’t be missed. I’ve always had a low tolerance for bathetic bullshit. Conspicuous, sanctimonious “grief” never solved anything. I was scrolling up to make sure there wasn’t any reason not to stick this guy on ignore, and I noticed this. Yet another crack. Someone getting emotional around him pisses him off. Empathy is the very reason why we care about other people besides ourselves being killed. Yet he shows that empathy is beyond him. As I said, **Crafter Man** and **Kimmy\_Gibbler** are just two sides of the same coin. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/310 "2012-12-15T04:44:05Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’ve not seen any evidence enjoyment of firearms is a concerning psychological indicator, enjoyment of setting fires for example or torturing animals is such a concerning indicator. > > Enjoying firearms is akin to enjoying fireworks, and I see no reason to assume it’s unhealthy. > > I think a lot of people, especially in the SDMB where so many are extremely anti-conservative and against anyone they view as being conservative a lot of anger is directed at “gun enthusiasts.” But in all reality, while I’ll agree a lot of gun enthusiasts are ridiculous, say incorrect things, assert specious reasons for owning firearms, trounce out laughable legal and philosophical arguments, they aren’t really a part of the problem. Gun enthusiasts tend to be white, middle class, and middle age. Because such hobbies are the provenance of that culture and age group. These aren’t people who by and large do either the spree shootings or even very many of the other homicides. When individuals from that demographic murder, it’s almost always their spouse, and spousal murder doesn’t at all require a firearm since you can do it behind closed doors in so many different ways. > > I’ve yet to see any compelling evidence that most of our spree shooting problem isn’t the result of mentally unstable young men as opposed to NRA gun enthusiasts. I understand people on the SDMB **don’t like those people** but aside from vague claims that “they create the culture where guns are prevalent” I don’t see a clear link between them and shootings. > > Also, I should point out I don’t “get” the enjoyment of shooting guns. I shoot guns to sight them in, because I need to do that to hunt. I find your anti-hunting stance bizarre. Hunting animals is as natural as sex or eating, and no more objectionable. I find hunting loathsome, and people who get enjoyment out of blowing giant holes in animals and killing them are creepy. Hunting is unnecessary in modern America, in the same way that blacksmithing is. I’m not a PETA person by any stretch of the imagination, I have no regard for pets, and much prefer plants. But to shoot a defenseless animal for sport? Just awful. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/311 "2012-12-15T04:44:13Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > Yes, it’s the gun nuts. Here we go. And how often do you really think it is the gun nuts doing these shootings? Most spree shootings in America have not been committed by gun nuts, but by people who acquire the weapon specifically to do the shooting. It appears the shooter in this case used his parents weapons. Holmes in Aurora, CO bought his weapons specifically for the shooting. Loughner acquired his gun exclusively for the shooting. Scott Evans appeared to use two normal enough pistols and was not a gun nut (he had also suffered an injury 4 years before that many said changed his personality, such things are not unknown in psychology literature). Jiverly Wong appears to have been a gun store regular, and might qualify as a gun nut. Michael McClendon appears to have only had two guns before he started planning his acts, and then acquired some semiautomatic rifles and DVDs containing combat training. By and large I think of gun nuts as people that are “nutty for guns”, they own a lot of them, are unhealthily obsessed with them, collect them, devote more than normal time to guns and gun dealings etc. I’m not seeing much evidence these people are the ones responsible for these sort of shootings. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/312 "2012-12-15T04:45:47Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > I find hunting loathsome, and people who get enjoyment out of blowing giant holes in animals and killing them are creepy. Hunting is unnecessary in modern America, in the same way that blacksmithing is. > > I’m not a PETA person by any stretch of the imagination, I have no regard for pets, and much prefer plants. But to shoot a defenseless animal for sport? Just awful. Almost everyone derives some level of pleasure at the expense of animals. Human society would not exist without humans utilizing animals as resources. I think hunting instills a proper appreciation for man’s place in the world, and think people who believe it is awful are retarded and immoral. ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/313 "2012-12-15T04:48:08Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > The position of “the only reason you need a gun is to defend against other people with guns” has always been ridiculous and yet I hear it quite a bit. > > If no one has a gun, those with the greatest physical prowess and element of surprise then control the situaton. Criminals generally tend to be young men - usually healthy and strong. You’re saying that a woman wouldn’t need to carry a gun because her rapist wouldn’t have a gun either? What about the fucking massive physical strength advantage the rapist has over her? > [@Sinaptics](#): > > Pepper spray, whistle, taser, knife, baton, fucking blowdarts. There are a whole host of ways to end the situation without needing a handgun. Pepper spray: not incapacitating. It causes pain but a determined attacker can ignore it. On Youtube you can see videos of soldiers and police officers practicing fighting etc. after being sprayed. whistle: that’s a complete joke. I wasn’t aware that criminals were in the habit of stopping assaults and murders when a whistle is blown. I think you’re confusing crime with sports. taser: usually incapacitating if it connects. Probably the best alternative to a firearm, but most only have one shot so if you miss or it gets stopped by heavy clothing you’re fucked. knife: generally if you cut someone they will bleed slowly giving them plenty of time to hurt you. Requires you to be very close to the attacker, so if they’re bigger than you they can grapple with you and take it from you. baton: not an overwhelming advantage if your attacker is bigger/tougher than you. fucking blowdarts: another joke. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/314 "2012-12-15T04:48:11Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > I find hunting loathsome, and people who get enjoyment out of blowing giant holes in animals and killing them are creepy. Hunting is unnecessary in modern America, in the same way that blacksmithing is. > > I’m not a PETA person by any stretch of the imagination, I have no regard for pets, and much prefer plants. But to shoot a defenseless animal for sport? Just awful. You shoot them for jerky, and steaks, and sausage. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/315 "2012-12-15T04:50:19Z")
I find it amusing when people think saying “xxx is unnecessary” as if that is an argument as to why people shouldn’t do it. The only things necessary are eating, drinking, and fucking to make more people. And even that isn’t strictly necessary, you could choose to not repopulate the species (I did, I think enough people have had 3+ children to make up for it.) Even eating and drinking isn’t strictly necessary, who says you have to go on living if you don’t want to? Pretty much everything we do isn’t “necessary.” That’s such a non-salient point as to be an absurdity. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/316 "2012-12-15T04:50:23Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Almost everyone derives some level of pleasure at the expense of animals. Human society would not exist without humans utilizing animals as resources. I think hunting instills a proper appreciation for man’s place in the world, and think people who believe it is awful are retarded and immoral. That’s fine, we can agree to disagree on that. But, it becomes a problem when all of these guns are produced and sold to cater to the “needs” of people who like to shoot Bambi. There is no need to hunt anymore - and the hue and cry of the hunting crowd has kept high caliber, semi-auto weapons in the citizenry from becoming obsolete. I asked a question about semi-auto weapons in GQ, and one of the claimed uses was to take down a deer or other animal you may have missed the heart on, so they don’t run and die in terrible pain. So, apparently, a legitimate use of semi-auto is so when a hunter can’t get a clean kill and needs to shot again real quick. Needless to say, my thought was that if you’re so worried about the animal being in pain, you probably shouldn’t have shot them in the first place. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/317 "2012-12-15T04:50:44Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > This kind of crap always get quoted and its utter bullshit. You’re saying surveys, people who already own guns being asked how many times they’ve used it to defend themselves, is a non-biased source? > > Hey, I’m not a gun owner, I’d like to report how many times I’ve been threatened by a gun that may have involved death if not for my handsomely genius quick thinking. I’ll go with 109k An interview with economist[John Lott Jr.](http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html), author of _More Guns Less Crime_ published by the University of Chicago press.[A Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Guns,_Less_Crime)discussing the book and the responses to it both pro and con. I can’t wait to see what lame excuses you and others are going to use to dismiss him. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/318 "2012-12-15T04:52:29Z")
I see nothing wrong with hunting, so I think you are misplacing the blame here. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/319 "2012-12-15T04:52:53Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > That’s fine, we can agree to disagree on that. But, it becomes a problem when all of these guns are produced and sold to cater to the “needs” of people who like to shoot Bambi. There is no need to hunt anymore - and the hue and cry of the hunting crowd has kept high caliber, semi-auto weapons in the citizenry from becoming obsolete. > > I asked a question about semi-auto weapons in GQ, and one of the claimed uses was to take down a deer or other animal you may have missed the heart on, so they don’t run and die in terrible pain. So, apparently, a legitimate use of semi-auto is so when a hunter can’t get a clean kill and needs to shot again real quick. > > Needless to say, my thought was that if you’re so worried about the animal being in pain, you probably shouldn’t have shot them in the first place. :rolleyes: I don’t really see how guns sold to cater to hunters are any source of problem. Are you ignorant of all the European countries with hunters and guns made for hunters that don’t have these problems? You guys need to wake up and recognize there are serious sociological issues that have a lot more to do with gun violence than hunters. If you make it more difficult for people who shouldn’t have guns to buy guns, you’ll see a decrease in gun crime. If you address the sociological issues you’ll see a more dramatic decrease. That’s not nothing to do with hunting, and I frankly could care less what you think about hunting as you’re obviously ignorant as hell on the matter. How can I avoid shooting the animal in the first place if I want to kill it? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/320 "2012-12-15T04:55:55Z")
This isn’t in response to **Sateryn76** as I’m done with that one’s stupidity, but for anyone who might appreciate a more responsive answer about clean kills. Since literally _time immemorial_ hunters have prized clean kills. Back to the sling and bow-and-arrow days. Hunters have traditionally held great respect for animals, and respected those whose skill was good enough to effect efficient, clean deaths. This was seen as the mark of a master hunter, and is what separate a person with a developed talent and skill from a mindless brute trying to smash stuff with a club like some animal. That’s one of the things the sport is most about, talent and ability as exemplified in putting your shot where you intend to get a clean kill. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=17)