# 27 dead, 18 children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050 "2012-12-14T18:38:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/321 "2012-12-15T04:56:05Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > How can I avoid shooting the animal in the first place if I want to kill it? Bow hunting:D ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/322 "2012-12-15T04:58:01Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > You forgot to mention video games. And Marilyn Manson. And conservative talk radio. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/323 "2012-12-15T04:59:59Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I don’t really see how guns sold to cater to hunters are any source of problem. Are you ignorant of all the European countries with hunters and guns made for hunters that don’t have these problems? You guys need to wake up and recognize there are serious sociological issues that have a lot more to do with gun violence than hunters. > > If you make it more difficult for people who shouldn’t have guns to buy guns, you’ll see a decrease in gun crime. If you address the sociological issues you’ll see a more dramatic decrease. That’s not nothing to do with hunting, and I frankly could care less what you think about hunting as you’re obviously ignorant as hell on the matter. > > How can I avoid shooting the animal in the first place if I want to kill it? That’s the issue I have - why would you want to kill an animal yourself? Anyway, it doesn’t matter. I agree that mental health and socio-economic issues are the ones that will need to be addressed before this kind of thing is fixed. But one of the things that makes it harder to control is hunters constantly bitching about how they need advanced weapons to shot literally unarmed animals. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/324 "2012-12-15T05:03:01Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I’ve never fired a gun in my life and couldn’t care less about them. Having said that, I don’t see guns being the real problem here. The real problem is: families who are too stupid, self-centered or just plain mean to care about their own kids’ problems even though everyone else can see them a mile away (so the rest of society has to deal with them.) I’m sure we’ve all met families like this who need a good kick in the ass. I think you’re being a bit unfair to those families. It can be nigh-on impossible to get help for a family member of legal age who isn’t willing to undergo treatment voluntarily and who isn’t clearly dangerous enough to be involuntarily committed. Those families need help, not derision. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/325 "2012-12-15T05:06:47Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > I think you’re being a bit unfair to those families. It can be nigh-on impossible to get help for a family member of legal age who isn’t willing to undergo treatment voluntarily and who isn’t clearly dangerous enough to be involuntarily committed. Those families need help, not derision. Well, it doesn’t matter since the mom is dead, but I have to wonder - did this women think it was an okay idea to keep at least three semi-auto weapons in a house she shared with a son who had mental problems? She paid a big price to find out she was wrong about that one, but unfortunately, her mistake/misunderstanding/possible denial/lack of concern also cost 20 first graders their lives. And, really, I get that it’s legal, but why the hell did she need such a high powered arsenal? Home defense? ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/326 "2012-12-15T05:08:15Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > Yes, it’s the gun nuts. Do you think it would be more apt to classify Adam Lanza as a ‘gun nut’ or as ‘fucking nuts’? ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/327 "2012-12-15T05:10:47Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > In all reality if you just made it a lot less convenient for **young men** to legally acquire firearms I think you’d see a dramatic decrease in firearms deaths. QFT. It’s a tough goal to accomplish, though. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/328 "2012-12-15T05:13:26Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > No idiot. The point is that despite increasingly strict gun control they do continue to happen. > > This problem in America runs deeper than just guns. Absolutely. I’d say the culture of fear and guns is a big part of it, but it is by no means something that will be easily fixed with stricter gun control laws. > [@BigT](#): > > Hahahahaha. A sane conversation would require no one getting emotional. This is the Pit where you are supposed to vent your negative emotions. > > And I’m not saying I’m above any of that. I know I’m overly emotional, and get pissed off easily. And I have no problem making an emotional argument. But don’t act like this is some sane conversation. This is a bunch of people bitching. This is recreational outrage. The added trollery just helps us get even more upset. > > This is catharsis, not a discussion. You didn’t read what I said very carefully; I said this was _more_ sane and rational than pretty much anything else on the internet right now. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/329 "2012-12-15T05:13:44Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > Here’s a description of the gunman from the New York Times: > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?_r=0) > > Looks like another case of beta-male rage. You’re certainly living up to your user name. You have nothing to go on yet, and yet you’re convinced you’ve got the answer, and it’s some weird-ass theory about social status and nerdy guys. Projection, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/330 "2012-12-15T05:14:24Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/331 "2012-12-15T05:19:17Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > I think you’re being a bit unfair to those families. It can be nigh-on impossible to get help for a family member of legal age who isn’t willing to undergo treatment voluntarily and who isn’t clearly dangerous enough to be involuntarily committed. Those families need help, not derision. The family was responsible for him for 18 years and from all indications, he grew up as yet another blatant misfit, exactly the same dreary profile as the other crazies in the news. It’s a family’s job to make sure it doesn’t get to that point. It’s like owning a car for 18 years and never maintaining it. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/332 "2012-12-15T05:20:33Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > And, really, I get that it’s legal, but why the hell did she need such a high powered arsenal? Home defense? I am not sure you know the meaning of ‘high powered’ and ‘arsenal’ as they commonly relate to firearms. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/333 "2012-12-15T05:25:22Z")
Gun control week always makes me nostalgic for rape week. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/334 "2012-12-15T05:26:50Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > Well, it doesn’t matter since the mom is dead, but I have to wonder - did this women think it was an okay idea to keep at least three semi-auto weapons in a house she shared with a son who had mental problems? We don’t know at this point. Did the shooter even live there? He was old enough to be living independently. I suppose we’ll learn more over the course of the next few days as more details come out. > [@](#): > > And, really, I get that it’s legal, but why the hell did she need such a high powered arsenal? Home defense? That certainly would be a plausible reason to own the Glock. And a few folks do use rifles for that purpose (although shotguns and handguns are more typical choices). ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/335 "2012-12-15T05:30:17Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > The family was responsible for him for 18 years and from all indications, he grew up as yet another blatant misfit, exactly the same dreary profile as the other crazies in the news. It’s a family’s job to make sure it doesn’t get to that point. It’s like owning a car for 18 years and never maintaining it. You seem to be confusing children with mechanical objects. I hate to break it to you, but no family can guarantee their kid will grow up to be mentally normal and healthy. Some people are just broken inside, in ways we can’t always fix. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/336 "2012-12-15T06:03:40Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > The family was responsible for him for 18 years and from all indications, he grew up as yet another blatant misfit, exactly the same dreary profile as the other crazies in the news. It’s a family’s job to make sure it doesn’t get to that point. It’s like owning a car for 18 years and never maintaining it. Yeah, I’ll never believe that parental neglect isn’t a big factor in most cases like this. I pay very, very close attention to what’s happening with my daughter. Even so, there are things that she doesn’t share with me immediately…but I consider it my responsibility to make sure she doesn’t go off the rails. Parenting’s not always easy…but I don’t think most parent of a mass shooter have the right to expect NOT to get some blame. That’s not to say that they are 100% responsible. My daughter was cutting herself occasionally for several years before she told me about it. However, I’m pretty damn sure I’d know in plenty of time if she was in a mental state that would make her suicidal or homicidal. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/337 "2012-12-15T07:10:32Z")
> [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](#): > > 1.) The U.S. does not have a jarringly high crime rate compared to other rich countries. In many cases it’s even lower. I’d worry more about being mugged in London than in San Diego, for example. But see caveat three. I count a murder as being more significant than a robbery. > [@](#): > > 2.) The United States has, well, **states** in which the crime rate are much higher (or lower) than other countries. Even with Iowa’s gun ownership rate, you are less likely to be murdered in Iowa than Germany. In Louisiana you are eight times as likely to be gun-murdered. I think it is rather obvious that in any given country, the crimes will not be perfectly distributed by geography. I am confident some German states (it’s a federal republic, too) have much lower crime rates than others. It is indisputably true that homicides involving firearms in the USA are strikingly more common than is normal in a rich, industrialized country. The country most culturally and economically similar to America is Canada, a country that has a considerable rate of firearm ownership, and yet firearm homicides in Canada are something like a fifth as common (adjusted for population.) There’s no point denying what is so stupidly obvious, or obfuscating the fact by musing that the rate in Iowa is lower than in Saskatchewan. The question is why, and I really don’t believe the single answer is “gun control.” If this becomes an issue of “gun control” nothing’s going to be accomplished. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/338 "2012-12-15T07:20:54Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > Looks like another case of beta-male rage. But was he a nerd? HELP US!! WE NEED ANSWERS! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/339 "2012-12-15T07:27:35Z")
I don’t understand how **Surreal** diagnosed the shooter without scouring his Facebook page for evidence of acne or cat photos. I’m starting to question his credentials. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/340 "2012-12-15T08:05:06Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Do you think it would be more apt to classify Adam Lanza as a ‘gun nut’ or as ‘fucking nuts’? I wasn’t referring to him, I was referring to the people who think that owning, shooting, and fondling objects designed to kill people is a worthwhile hobby and not a sick, pathetic fetish that they should be ashamed of. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=18)