# 27 dead, 18 children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050 "2012-12-14T18:38:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/341 "2012-12-15T08:09:21Z")
I ran out of interest to read the whole thread so apologies if someone has already made this point. In the piece at [guncite.com](http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html), Dr Kleck explains that the numbers of defensive gun uses is lower in the survey conducted by the DoJ because the respondents don’t reveal the occasions when this use was illegal. So can we presume that this is true in the other surveys - about 100,000 legal uses and 150,000 to 2,900,000 illegal ones, happily revealed as there are no consequences? If so how does this level of flauting the laws of ownership help the case of gun rights proponents? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/342 "2012-12-15T08:29:51Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > I wasn’t referring to him, I was referring to the people who think that owning, shooting, and fondling objects designed to kill people is a worthwhile hobby and not a sick, pathetic fetish that they should be ashamed of. That’s because when they are owning, shooting and “fondling” :rolleyes: their guns, it’s because they are appreciating the beauty and precision and workmanship that went into making them, and the forces that come into play when they’re fired, all of which are very cool and fun to experience. The last thing most of them are thinking as they are owning, shooting and “fondling” their guns is that they’re designed to kill people. Same with bows and arrows. It’s fun to shoot them. No sickness and no patheticness involved. In fact, many of those guys are the among the most self-sufficient, well-balanced and responsible people in the country. We’d be better off if more were like them. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/343 "2012-12-15T08:31:40Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Pepper spray, whistle, taser, knife, baton, fucking blowdarts. There are a whole host of ways to end the situation without needing a handgun. Okay, I tend to stay out of these threads usually, because I can see virtue on both sides. But I am a small, weak person, and if I’m on the street I’m probably wearing shoes not conducive to running, and really, a whistle? Blow darts? Don’t make me laugh. I’m no good with a knife, unless I’m slicing an onion, probably not much good with a baseball bat unless I have the element of surprise, and while I never shot anyone in my years of gun owning, I did on a couple of occasions yell out the door that I HAD ONE, and that ended the situation right there. Does that count as gun use? PS, I did not report it. I am not the sort of person who could yell that out without having the actual gun to back it up. But I also don’t think my owning that gun made me responsible for the death of a child, any more than my owning a car makes me responsible for some DUI idiot’s fatal crash into an innocent pedestrian. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/344 "2012-12-15T10:04:58Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > Well, it doesn’t matter since the mom is dead, but I have to wonder - did this women think it was an okay idea to keep at least three semi-auto weapons in a house she shared with a son who had mental problems? She paid a big price to find out she was wrong about that one, but unfortunately, her mistake/misunderstanding/possible denial/lack of concern also cost 20 first graders their lives. > > And, really, I get that it’s legal, but why the hell did she need such a high powered arsenal? Home defense? This. And it need not be an “arsenal” (as someone mentioned, it really wasn’t.) We can argue whether someone should keep a gun (or two, or three) in one’s house. We can argue whether someone living with a grown child with certain mental issues should be doing more to help that child maintain self-control. But can we at least agree that having BOTH guns and a maladjusted 20-year-old male in your house is probably a bad idea? Not criminally negligent, perhaps, but a bad idea. The deceased mother/teacher made a preventable mistake. At the very least, we should get the word out as much as we can, so that other people who are in situations like hers (guns in house, unstable person living in house) can be alerted to consider changing one of the two variables under their control. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/345 "2012-12-15T10:29:47Z")
Fuck this. I think there’s points on all sides (about 6 dozen of them) on this thread no matter what argument you throw at me. I am sorry, but… Screw the 2nd amendment, screw the politics, screw the stats that everyone cites and ban all handguns period. We can start with law officers and military only allowed to own and wield a handgun, otherwise forget it. Keep the rifles for hunting, skeet shooting, whatever. There just isn’t enough gun control law to cover every possibility of a shithead legally obtaining a handgun. Yes, there will still be knife murders, baseball bat murders, hockey stick murders, Drano in the coffee, sure, but less likely on the number of fatalities. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/346 "2012-12-15T11:22:21Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > And again, I have to ask how realistic is it that a man in the frame of mind to commit 108 deadly felonies is going to stop and say “oh, dang, gun law says my pistol has illegal attributes. Guess I’d better hold up the killing spree until I can get the paperwork straight.” Of course that’s not realistic. But\* if he can’t buy such a gun or ammo clip or whatever in the first place\*, that might slow him down somewhat. 'Scuse me while I bang my head against a wall. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/347 "2012-12-15T11:28:49Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Fuck this. I think there’s points on all sides (about 6 dozen of them) on this thread no matter what argument you throw at me. I am sorry, but… > > Screw the 2nd amendment, screw the politics, screw the stats that everyone cites and ban all handguns period. The gunnies are certainly making the case for it, aren’t they? They’re saying that nothing else will work, that there’s no point in even trying lesser measures. If you believe they know their stuff, and aren’t just throwing a bunch of BS at us, it certainly makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/348 "2012-12-15T11:46:57Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Of course that’s not realistic. But\* if he can’t buy such a gun or ammo clip or whatever in the first place\*, that might slow him down somewhat. Okay. So, in your mind, this criminal is going to say “no, I’d better not illegally buy a gun and high capacity clip. That’s against the law, and I really had firm plans to stop at 108 felonies today before committing suicide.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/349 "2012-12-15T11:56:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Gun control week always makes me nostalgic for rape week. This thread has been scolded by The Scoldist! ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/350 "2012-12-15T11:58:47Z")
In spite of being a pretty liberal guy myself in many ways, I’ve always been supportive of gun ownership rights. I think a happy compromise would be what many other countries have done: ban handgun ownership and sales entirely. Keep rifles and shotguns around for hunting and personal defense. I don’t honestly care if they aren’t as good at defense as a handgun is. Now, will a handgun ban prevent every mass shooting in America? No, obviously not. But I think it would be a good compromise, and would vastly lower the amount of killing. Of course, you have the problem that there are already so many handguns in this country, it might be difficult to ever get rid of them all, thus ensuring that the only people who have them are the hardened criminals. So even then, I’m not sure if a handgun ban is really all that practical. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/351 "2012-12-15T12:00:06Z")
Occasionally, the Tree of Liberty must be watered with the blood of children. Or so I am told. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/352 "2012-12-15T12:13:41Z")
People who are suggesting that improved identification of mental health problems is the solution: what do you think the lifetime prevalence rate of mental disorders is? It’s about 50%. About half the US population will have a mental disorder at some point in their life. Now understand that not all weirdness qualifies for a mental disorder. And understand that not all people with some disposition to a disorder will develop one (even though they have some of the features). And understand that people fluctuate on a daily basis- including fluctuations in mood, impulsiveness, judgment, cognitive function. Identifying who is going to shoot someone else isn’t as simple as turning them over and looking for the mark on their ass. The problem isn’t guns. The problem is ensuring that they are proliferated as thoroughly through our society as they are. People are fucked up. They fluctuate daily through degrees of being fucked up. Making sure that at any moment they can grab a firearm is just a stupid thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/353 "2012-12-15T12:39:24Z")
FYI, given funding cuts and shifting priorities, there has been a drastic reduction in research on violence and aggression in the US. Even on mental health more generally, funding for research has become harder to get. If the sequester goes through, it will go from extremely difficult to get funding to virtually impossible to get funding. If that concerns you at all, let your representatives know. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/354 "2012-12-15T12:45:00Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Well, sorry you feel that way. The point though wasn’t that you’d change your mind on the shooting due to a simple policy change; the idea was that perhaps a different outlook on life would help you with appears to be an ongoing problem you seem to have - at least to me on the outside looking in and going only by what I’ve seen of your posts on this board - with depression and an overall pessimistic view of life that is impacting very negatively on your passage though it. Thank you for your concern. I’m doing just fine, as a general matter of course. **Hentor** is right. These things are worthy of discussion. I was just up to my neck in assholes yesterday and it put me in a bad mood. I had a pissy rant and this seemed like the most logical place to put it. Sorry for the distraction. Back to arguing about why children get shot. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/355 "2012-12-15T12:54:27Z")
Horrible tragedy. I’d love to see guns banned, but I know that’s an unrealistic goal. It’s way too late in the game because too many guns are in circulations. The constitutional hurdle would be impossible, let alone the implementation of such a thing. Voluntary gun buybacks would be expensive, and even I would question the wisdom of disarming only the law-abiding people. And talk about unintended consequences. We’d have people stockpiling guns if there was even a whisper of a chance that the right to bear arms would be reversed. Politicians who supported such a measure would be targeted for assassination. Black markets would open up even further. And as soon as it passed, we’d have a contingent campaigning to re-legalize guns, but to regulate them and tax them, then put the proceeds towards anti-violence campaigns. I honestly don’t know what the answer is when you have a nation so thoroughly divided. ---
**Author:** ![Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a587f6/32.png) [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lago_Ys-Transform)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/356 "2012-12-15T13:44:09Z")
You know, I’m a pretty big fan of the Second Amendment in theory. The idea that citizens should not and cannot be prevented from serving in a legitimate military is extremely sound. That’s one of the easiest ways to prevent, oh, genocide and mass discrimination. “Well-regulated” is a bit of a weasel word, but I think that it’s pretty much inarguable that a transgendered person should be able to serve with full rights and privileges in the United States military. And you know what? Considering the time period and historical backdrop in which the Second Continental Congress came from, I think **that** is much closer to the intent of the Second Amendment than ‘people get to live out their action hero fantasies with little government interference!’ tripe that people interpret it for. Unfortunately, the Second Amendment hasn’t been used to uphold the dignity and rights of the population at large. The way the Second Amendment has been interpreted in such a way that it empowers the KKK and still gives us total fucking bullshit like Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. What the hell? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/357 "2012-12-15T14:05:16Z")
> [@Reyemile](#): > > FYI: [22 Children were slashed in a school attack in China today.](http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack/index.html) School attacks can happen just fine without guns. A gun nut in my FB feed posted this. My response: “If knives are just as effective as guns, I am sure all gun owners will gladly turn in their firearms and trade them in for knives.” His response: Yelling at me for my bad logic. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/358 "2012-12-15T14:08:49Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > IOW, you are OK with thousands of random individuals dying for your freedoms. > > Hopefully it won’t surprise you to find that I don’t want **my** kid to wind up dying in such a manner because your freedoms mean more to you than his life. > > Or anyone else’s kid, for that matter. Or anyone else’s wife, husband, father, mother, brother, sister, grandparent, grandchild, friend, acquaintance…why on earth do you feel that your right to carry firearms is so important that it’s preferable that thousands of people die each year as the result of the preservation of that right, than to let them live? Because he is a frightened little man who only feels alive when he is carrying a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/359 "2012-12-15T14:20:06Z")
Come on CNN, there has to be something else happening in the world, somewhere. Please go cover it. If we can’t stop gun sales, why not tax the shit out of those sales. And tax them yearly as property. Then see how many people want to own dozens of them. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/360 "2012-12-15T14:30:33Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > I find hunting loathsome, and people who get enjoyment out of blowing giant holes in animals and killing them are creepy. Hunting is unnecessary in modern America, in the same way that blacksmithing is. Blacksmithing is still quite needed and there are some extremely talented blacksmiths out there who can make or break the horse’s athletic ability. Hunting (in most cases) is an important tool in managing wild animal populations. In my area, hunting limits damage to crops and habitats. It also allows monitoring of the wild population for diseases and keeps them healthy by not allowing them to outstrip the resources available to them. But, I’ll admit that some areas (like Alaska) are down right stupid and ignorant about their hunting management. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > In fact, many of those guys are the among the most self-sufficient, **well-balanced and responsible** people in the country. We’d be better off if more were like them. I always hate to read or hear this sort of defense of gun owners because most of the people in my area who start going on about Second Amendment rights are drunks. In my area, there is a high correlation between highly vocal gun rights advocates and domestic violence / DUI convictions. But your area might be different. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=19)