# 27 dead, 18 children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050 "2012-12-14T18:38:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/381 "2012-12-15T17:27:22Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > If we had a gun culture in the United Sates based on hunting and target shooting it would be one thing, but we have a bunch of nuts who think that they need guns to protect us from the government, fight off UN troops, and protect their homes. All of these obsessions are related to human targets. They have created a society which accepts the premise that we need to have weapons around to kill people. > > Are there any other first world countries that have this chilling, sociopathic mindset? Well, Norway apparently has some people who think you should kill students because too many Muslims are immigrating. Spain has people who think it’s okay to kill people because you speak a different language and thus shouldn’t be ruled by Spanish-speakers. The UK had people who thought it was fine to bomb apartment buildings for a long time. So yes, there are other countries with sociopathic mindsets present but maybe not exactly the same as the “militia movement” in the U.S. But you’re speaking out of ignorance. Most militia movement survivalists, the ones who believe they will some day have to fight the government or the UN, are all probably gun nuts, but not all gun nuts are militia types. I believe the SPLC estimates there are at most around 60,000 people involved in that movement. By and large, while they have caused problems like Timothy McVeigh, they are harmless crazy people. They aren’t typically the ones doing spree shootings or even involved in a lot of the gun homicides. You’re making associations that just simply aren’t there. The militia movement is not typical of gun nuts. Even gun nuts are not typical of gun owners. And most gun homicides and spree shootings have nothing to do with the militia movement or gun owners. You’re just jamming a bunch of weird stuff together that has no clear relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/382 "2012-12-15T17:28:00Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Not automatic, [as in \*fully-\*automatic.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzfm4pYhIyY) > > “Auto” is typically, in gun-speak (and erroneous media reports), a semi-auto. > > One pull of the trigger, one round dicharged. Trigger must be released (the amount varies) to “reset” before it can be pulled again, dicharging another round. > > It is still possible to fire fairly rapidly; I’ve seen highly skilled and _exceptionally_ well-trained military and police operators who get nearly full-auto rate of fire out of semi-auto firearms, and still maintain acceptable accuracy. > > For the overwhelming bulk of most mere mortals (myself included), that rate-of-fire is attainable only if you don’t mind spraying bullets everywhere in a barely controlled, mostly unaimed (as in, “I’m inside the barn, aiming at the barn wall, and getting a couple of hits every now and then”) spray. I stand corrected, but it still seems like Kindergarten teacher + semi-automatic weapons + mentally ill son=Very poor judgement to say the least. A handgun for self protection, I could understand. But a Glock, a Sig Sauer, and an assault rifle seem like a strange collection for a kindergarten teacher with a mentally ill son to keep. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/383 "2012-12-15T17:32:14Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > I stand corrected, but it still seems like Kindergarten teacher + semi-automatic weapons + mentally ill son=Very poor judgement to say the least. > > A handgun for self protection, I could understand. But a Glock, a Sig Sauer, and an assault rifle seem like a strange collection for a kindergarten teacher with a mentally ill son to keep. Agreed, though I must point out that, other than the fact that he did this thing, do we have any information that he exhibited any signs of mental illness in the days, weeks, years leading up to this? I ask for information only; not to detract or otherwise mitigate your point. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/384 "2012-12-15T17:34:42Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > If we had a gun culture in the United Sates based on hunting and target shooting it would be one thing, but we have a bunch of nuts who think that they need guns to protect us from the government, fight off UN troops, and protect their homes. All of these obsessions are related to human targets. They have created a society which accepts the premise that we need to have weapons around to kill people. > > Are there any other first world countries that have this chilling, sociopathic mindset? Actually most of the people I know who own handguns (and in one case a shotgun) own them to protect their families and themselves, while _inside_ their homes, from the thugs, criminals and nogoodniks our society is churning out in record numbers. I don’t know anyone who’s bought them to protect their houses or to fight off the UN. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/385 "2012-12-15T17:43:22Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Actually most of the people I know who own handguns (and in one case a shotgun) own them to protect their families and themselves, while _inside_ their homes, from the thugs, criminals and nogoodniks our society is churning out in record numbers. I don’t know anyone who’s bought them to protect their houses or to fight off the UN. :rolleyes: For whatever reason there is a loud and vocal portion of the SDMB that thinks the red states are 100% populate by guys who are just Timothy McVeighs waiting to happen. That crazy militia/survivalist/anti-UN/anti-Federal government movement is very, very small. It’s a concern because they have committed acts of domestic terrorism, and have fought police before and killed police, but they are a negligible part of the overall gun crime problem and I do not believe they have ever been involved in a spree shooting like this. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/386 "2012-12-15T17:48:49Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Actually most of the people I know Doubtless a representative sample of the population. > [@](#): > > from the thugs, criminals and nogoodniks our society is churning out in record numbers. It’s been explained to you in thread after thread - dozens of times, I bet - that violent crime has been decreasing for decades. I have no trouble believing everyone you talk to is a panicky idiot with a gun, and like everyone I celebrate your right to own a gun because you’re scared of TV and what politicians were saying about crime 30 to 40 years ago. But all the same, what you are saying is wrong, and it’s unthinkable to you because it’s too inconvenient for your beliefs- or because you’re a moron. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/387 "2012-12-15T17:58:20Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > A gun nut in my FB feed posted this. My response: > > “If knives are just as effective as guns, I am sure all gun owners will gladly turn in their firearms and trade them in for knives.” > > His response: Yelling at me for my bad logic. :rolleyes: Apparently the attack on Chinese children did not result in any deaths. I’m sure the Connecticut parents would prefer slashed children to dead corpses. Along with 8 to 10 thousand gun murders per year in the USA, we have around 18 thousand gun suicides. Guns do the lethal job far more effectively than other methods which is why more suicide attempts are “successful” in the USA than other countries. * * * I don’t know why I bother participating in thses threads. We’re doomed by the gun manufacturers and their minions in the NRA to more and more of these mass killings and there is nothing that can be done about it. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/388 "2012-12-15T18:00:12Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > That was a typo, was supposed to be “guy” not “gun.” I know; it was too good a line to pass up. :double, triple checks speelings: > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > This is 2012+, no reason not to have one single card that can list all licenses or even no physical card at all and a fully electronic system which can let the merchant look you up as long as they verify identity. But the separate license is more a requirement that before you purchase any gun, you have to get an individual firearm ownership license granting you authority to buy that specific gun. That means you have to go through the individual gun licensing process every time you buy a gun. But no reason to make someone carry lots of physical paper licenses. In a meta “what if” sense, I’d be more inclined to a registration system (almost said “scheme,” but that makes it sound hinky) than an personal license plus a separate license for each firearm. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > It’s part of the comprehensive reforms I was suggesting. So I’m stipulating a right to keep a “home defense” firearm out of a gun safe, but even a pump action shotgun can be used for grave harm if someone takes it out of your house. If you have a limit on how much loose ammo is laying around, then even if they steal your home defense weapon there is a limit on how many times they can fire it. If they steal it and 1,000 shells that’s a big problem. All right, that’s fair enough in concept; in execution, I, like most gun owners I know and have talked to, tend to buy in bulk when prices drop (“Big Bob’s Bullet Bunker Blowout Bonanza! All ammo 1/2 off this Saturday, noon to four! Everything Must Go!”) and finding a gun-safe quality storage container is…problematic. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I would not permit gun loaning. I’d stipulate you may allow someone to use your gun while hunting or sport/target shooting if you are physically present at the range or hunting with the person in question and that person is a licensed gun owner. Hmmm. Wouldn’t necessarily impact me personally, and as such, I wouldn’t personally have much problem with it. I’m not sure it would significantly impact the vast majority of gun owners. I see the impetus in punishing idiot/fool/criminal A for giving a gun to idiot/fool/criminal B, and agree your idea has merit. How would this impact Range Rentals? Would your average guy John Q. Public, thinking about buying a gun, have to get one of your licenses before going to, say, [Top Gun Shooting Sports](http://www.topgunss.com/index.html) to try out a range rental 9mm handgun _before_ taking the full plunge and buying a gun? > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Right, I’m willing to put reasonable exceptions in place for holding people responsible whose guns are used for crime or whose guns are stolen. But the general concept is, you have a legal responsibility to immediately report when they are gone, and to keep them locked so someone can’t just take them out of a drawer. Agreed, agreed, a thousand times agreed. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’d aim for age 25, not 21 or 22. Before age 25 is when most young men go to prison, for example. Prisoners are much less likely to reoffend as criminals when they are older. I don’t propose regulations in response to a spree shooting, but a lot of spree shooters are unstable and under 25 as well. Basically anyone under the age of 25 it should be much more difficult for them to get and use guns. Your proposed age cutoff is consistent with most statistical data I’ve seen from sources like the CDC’s NIMH for identifiable crime-related gun usage. There are “outliers,” of course, but there always are, and will be. One problem (not with your proposal, but with types of gun deaths): around 55%-60% of gun deaths are suicides, white males ~20-35 being a simple majority, white females about the same age making up the rest (still a sizeable %). > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Sure, but even in countries like Germany, Switzerland etc that have adopted such laws it doesn’t appear the goal was an outright ban. So I don’t have a problem with anti-gun people as long as they aren’t going for outright bans of all guns or what I consider to be silly/stupid bans of “specific types of scary guns.” I’m not sure that the political cultures map one to the other. I see a lot of resistance to most of this coming out of what’s derisively deemed “flyover country,” who already have violent and violent gun crime rates at, or lower than, the European countries you mention. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/389 "2012-12-15T18:04:19Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > For whatever reason there is a loud and vocal portion of the SDMB that thinks the red states are 100% populate by guys who are just Timothy McVeighs waiting to happen. _ **That crazy militia/survivalist/anti-UN/anti-Federal government movement is very, very small.** _ It’s a concern because they have committed acts of domestic terrorism, and have fought police before and killed police, but they are a negligible part of the overall gun crime problem and I do not believe they have ever been involved in a spree shooting like this. Emphasis mine. I had heard, or read (no cite), that at its height of power, the I.R.A had at most 200 “active shooters” in their ranks, and maybe ten times that number of active supporters (providers of tools, weapons, cars, safe house, etc., but not otherwise engage in active violence). And look at what they accomplished. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/390 "2012-12-15T18:05:46Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Agreed, though I must point out that, other than the fact that he did this thing, do we have any information that he exhibited any signs of mental illness in the days, weeks, years leading up to this? > > I ask for information only; not to detract or otherwise mitigate your point. Fair question and I don’t think there is any hard evidence available yet. Interviews from his friends, former classmates etc described him as having a “personality disorder”, though they didn’t specify which kind. They also described him as dark and brooding, keeping to himself, etc. Not sure if his mother knew the magnitude of his psychiatric issues, but it’s still hard to understand why a kindergarten teacher would keep such a collection of weapons that a kid with _any_ type of personality disorder would have access to. Maybe it will all make sense as the investigation unfolds, but at this point it just doesn’t compute afaic. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/391 "2012-12-15T18:06:02Z")
Nitpick: The NIMH is separate from the CDC. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/392 "2012-12-15T18:08:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Doubtless a representative sample of the population. > > It’s been explained to you in thread after thread - dozens of times, I bet - that violent crime has been decreasing for decades. I have no trouble believing everyone you talk to is a panicky idiot with a gun, and like everyone I celebrate your right to own a gun because you’re scared of TV and what politicians were saying about crime 30 to 40 years ago. But all the same, what you are saying is wrong, and it’s unthinkable to you because it’s too inconvenient for your beliefs- or because you’re a moron. At one point, many years ago, I did own a handgun for home defense (apartment, really). I then learned that most burglaries in our area took place when the home owner/occupant was away, and realized my handgun was actually a liability. Not necessarily to me, but to the community at large if I my place was ever broken into and my handgun stolen. I then took measures to secure my handgun in such a way that it couldn’t be stolen, at least not easily. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/393 "2012-12-15T18:09:54Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Nitpick: The NIMH is separate from the CDC. Really? I had assumed they were a sub-dept. of the CDC, as I always accessed them through the CDC’s website. Huh. Fair 'nuf. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/394 "2012-12-15T18:13:07Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Really? I had assumed they were a sub-dept. of the CDC, as I always accessed them through the CDC’s website. Huh. Fair 'nuf. NIMH (National Institute of Mental Health) is an institute within the National Institutes of Health (NIH). ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/395 "2012-12-15T18:21:20Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Doubtless a representative sample of the population. > > It’s been explained to you in thread after thread - dozens of times, I bet - that violent crime has been decreasing for decades. I have no trouble believing everyone you talk to is a panicky idiot with a gun, and like everyone I celebrate your right to own a gun because you’re scared of TV and what politicians were saying about crime 30 to 40 years ago. But all the same, what you are saying is wrong, and it’s unthinkable to you because it’s too inconvenient for your beliefs- or because you’re a moron. And here we have a prime example of the kind of behavior **Martin Hyde** was just talking about. The people I referenced can’t possibly be just normal, everyday folks going about their business like everyone else, working at their jobs, raising their families, having cookouts and going to the movies and shopping at Walmart. No, to hear you tell it they’re all “_panicky idiots with guns!_” :rolleyes: It’s also possible that you’re full of shit. I live in a fairly large midwestern city in whitebread flyover country. We are on track for a murder rate this year that will be 60% higher than it was just last year alone, if not higher than that. Our murder rate has been going up yearly for quite some time, but the last few years it has really taken off with this year the worst of all. I realize there’s a phenomenon on this board where my personal experience is directly contradictory to the “statistics” people here love to fall back on, but somehow I just can’t bring myself to believe I happen to live in this tiny little bubble where things go on that are so invariably outside the norm of everyplace else in the country. Plus the area where I live is one of the last ones where you’d expect this kind of thing to be happening. I also find it curious that it’s damn near impossible to come up with detailed murder statistics for previous years for any of the cities I’ve tried to find them for anywhere on the net. It seems the police have never been too fond of releasing them and so there’s no way to test the veracity of the FBI statistics you love to cite. Plus, while the statistics you are so fond of quoting do show that crime has been decreasing, it’s still much higher than it was during the country’s halcyon days prior to the late sixties when the huge upsurge began. So it’s hardly comforting to hear someone like you say, “Hey, at least there aren’t as many murders as there used to be.” Plus it’s entirely possible that we’re in the beginning of a new upsurge that your several years old statistics don’t reflect. So basically what we have here is you saying “Who are you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes?” I think I’ll continue to go by what I see happening in real life rather than your unverifiable and self-serving statistics. If you don’t mind, that is. Or, hell…even if you do. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/396 "2012-12-15T18:32:02Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > (snip)- or because you’re a moron. Bingo. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/397 "2012-12-15T18:36:33Z")
Putting the word statistics in quotes, as if to give it a dubious air, simply marks you as a moron. The problem is that mark is so hard to see among all the other ensigns of abject stupidity you proudly support. Why don’t you go back to your métier: juvenile anuses? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/398 "2012-12-15T18:36:47Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The people I referenced can’t possibly be just normal, everyday folks going about their business like everyone else, working at their jobs, raising their families, having cookouts and going to the movies and shopping at Walmart. No, to hear you tell it they’re all “_panicky idiots with guns!_” :rolleyes: If they think the way you do, yes. > [@](#): > > I live in a fairly large midwestern city in whitebread flyover country. We are on track for a murder rate this year that will be 60% higher than it was just last year alone, if not higher than that. Our murder rate has been going up yearly for quite some time, but the last few years it has really taken off with this year the worst of all. And the increase in gun ownership hasn’t fixed that? How weird. > [@](#): > > Plus, while the statistics you are so fond of quoting do show that crime has been decreasing, it’s still much higher than it was during the country’s halcyon days prior to the late sixties when the huge upsurge began. Right, we know the song: crime went way up because of t3h hippies, and it’s been declining for decades because of, um… get off my lawn! > [@](#): > > Plus it’s entirely possible that we’re in the beginning of a new upsurge that your several years old statistics don’t reflect. Well that explains why you only started talking this way in the last couple of years. Meanwhile for some reason gun sales have not fixed this problem in your area or nationally. What are we at now, a measly three guns per person? Surely if it gets to four or five, this crime will stop. > [@](#): > > I think I’ll continue to go by what I see happening in real life rather than your unverifiable and self-serving statistics. Unverifiable statistics. Folks, I give you **Starving Artist**. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/399 "2012-12-15T19:02:44Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Actually most of the people I know who own handguns (and in one case a shotgun) own them to protect their families and themselves, while _inside_ their homes, from the thugs, criminals and nogoodniks our society is churning out in record numbers. I don’t know anyone who’s bought them to protect their houses or to fight off the UN. :rolleyes: And there you go. Completely irrational and incorrect understanding of facts that leads people to arm themselves. Crime is down; hardly a case of society churning out nogoodniks in record numbers. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/400 "2012-12-15T19:04:33Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I realize there’s a phenomenon on this board where my personal experience is directly contradictory to the “statistics” people here love to fall back on, but somehow I just can’t bring myself to believe I happen to live in this tiny little bubble where things go on that are so invariably outside the norm of everyplace else in the country. I bet you thought Romney was ahead in the polls too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=21)