# 27 dead, 18 children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050 "2012-12-14T18:38:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/401 "2012-12-15T19:07:02Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And the increase in gun ownership hasn’t fixed that? How weird. Is this correct? I was under the impression that despite increases in the total number of guns, ownership rates have been declining the past decade or so. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/402 "2012-12-15T19:07:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If they think the way you do, yes. Childish name calling doesn’t really suit the facade you try so hard to cultivate of being thoughtful, well-informed and reasonable. > [@Marley23](#): > > And the increase in gun ownership hasn’t fixed that? How weird. And _I’m_ the moron, huh? :rolleyes: Gun ownership isn’t supposed to fix it; it’s supposed to defend against it! > [@Marley23](#): > > Right, we know the song: crime went way up because of t3h hippies, and it’s been declining for decades because of, um… get off my lawn! Three strikes laws? Republican efforts to get tough on crime? Joe Arpaio? 😃 Increased gun ownership complimented by increasingly sophisticated electronic surveillance and alarm systems? Who knows? But one thing’s for sure: there are more murderous assholes and miscreants running the streets than ever before, and thanks to your social and government policies it’s only gonna get worse. We’re cranking out more uneducated latchkey kids raised without proper parental guidance (or even proper parents) and values every day, and the ones causing all the trouble now are the ones born under those conditions twenty and thirty years ago. Just wait and see how much worse things will be twenty years from now when today’s crop has matured into the ne-er do wells and thugs that they’ll become. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/403 "2012-12-15T19:11:46Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Okay. So, in your mind, this criminal is going to say “no, I’d better not illegally buy a gun and high capacity clip. That’s against the law, and I really had firm plans to stop at 108 felonies today before committing suicide.” :rolleyes: What is this, “if high capacity clips are outlawed, then crazy loners will magically have access to high capacity clips?” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/404 "2012-12-15T19:12:31Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Is this correct? I was under the impression that despite increases in the total number of guns, ownership rates have been declining the past decade or so. [Doesn’t look that way to me.](http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.aspx) I don’t see a consistent trend here. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/405 "2012-12-15T19:15:33Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Is this correct? I was under the impression that despite increases in the total number of guns, ownership rates have been declining the past decade or so. According to item #7 at Ezra Klein’s “[Twelve facts about guns and mass shootings in the United States](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/),” your impresssion is correct: the fraction of Americans owning guns is indeed declining, and has been for some time. We’ve got more guns, but concentrated in fewer hands. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/406 "2012-12-15T19:17:57Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > But you’re speaking out of ignorance. Most militia movement survivalists, the ones who believe they will some day have to fight the government or the UN, are all probably gun nuts, but not all gun nuts are militia types. I believe the SPLC estimates there are at most around 60,000 people involved in that movement. By and large, while they have caused problems like Timothy McVeigh, they are harmless crazy people. They aren’t typically the ones doing spree shootings or even involved in a lot of the gun homicides. You’re making associations that just simply aren’t there. The militia movement is not typical of gun nuts. Even gun nuts are not typical of gun owners. And most gun homicides and spree shootings have nothing to do with the militia movement or gun owners. You’re just jamming a bunch of weird stuff together that has no clear relationship. I think you are misunderstanding. I don’t think the militia movement is big, but I do think the number of people who think they need to have guns around “to protect freedom” is huge. Likewise the number of people who keep guns for self defense. This leads to a completely different culture than one based on hunting and target shooting. You have this large segment of society keeping weapons around ready to shoot people. This is pretty sick stuff. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/407 "2012-12-15T19:18:43Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Is this correct? I was under the impression that despite increases in the total number of guns, ownership rates have been declining the past decade or so. It depends on whose numbers you look at, or how recent they are. IIRC, gun ownership _was_ on the decline throughout much of the mid-to-late 90s and early '00s. But it has reportedly been ticking upwards in the last 4-5 years. All numbers I see are usually based on gun sales, instead of statistical surveys. This could mean gun owners are buying more guns; so the rate of gun ownership overall doesn’t change much, just more owners have multiple guns. Or it could represent more people becoming first-time gun owners. One of my employer’s customers is a well-known, internationally renowned firearm and ammunition manufacturer, and they have been going “gang busters” for years now. Since they are a publicly traded company, their nubers are verifiable. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/408 "2012-12-15T19:19:09Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Childish name calling doesn’t really suit the facade you try so hard to cultivate of being thoughtful, well-informed and reasonable. And being marginally polite doesn’t disguise your smarmy attitude or the deep and abiding racism and sexism of the era you are constantly eulogizing. > [@](#): > > And _I’m_ the moron, huh? :rolleyes: Gun ownership isn’t supposed to fix it; it’s supposed to defend against it! Then I guess it isn’t working. If you are trying to defend yourself against something and the something keeps happening, is the defense effective? > [@](#): > > Who knows? Not you, obviously. But people who actually think knowing stuff is worthwhile might. > [@](#): > > one thing’s for sure: there are more murderous assholes and miscreants running the streets than ever before No, there aren’t. “For sure” is not a magical incantation that turns your fantasies into reality. When you say “one thing’s for sure” after dismissing facts and statistics, what you are actually saying is “I don’t care what’s happening, this is how I FEEEEEEEEEL.” Which is, ironically, the kind of touchy-feely liberal attitude you’re always whining about. > [@](#): > > it’s only gonna get worse. Translation: it’s been getting better for years, but I’m not going to slow down my whining or put two and two together. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/409 "2012-12-15T19:33:56Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > If I thought it would be effective at preventing or even slowing what happened yesterday, I might be okay with it. But with my knowledge and experience with firearms, I don’t think that it will. Yeah, that’s pretty much always the excuse: I don’t think it’ll work, so let’s not try it. > [@](#): > > [HIPPA.](http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/summary/index.html) I’m not an expert, but I see no provisions for revealing info on a person a health care provider suspects might commit a crime. So the Colorado school counselor’s hand’s may have been tied anyway. > > Any Health Care Professional Dopers who want to jump in here wrt HIPPA, and how it might relate to identifying and preventing spree-killers, would be welcome. Could you please cite chapter and verse, rather than HIPAA as a whole? A non-specific cite to a mass of material is the functional equivalent of no cite at all. > [@](#): > > As someone who has assuredly attended a lot more gun shows that you’ve even heard of, I can unequivocally say…you’re somewhat correct. The ones I attend locally have been doing a fantastic job, in coopoeration with law enforcement, of banning private sales on show grounds (typically a convention center or VFW/AMLeg. Hall). This does not keep private sales from being _arranged_ at the show between private individuals (not dealers), and taken off-grounds to happen anyway. > > Other shows I have attended, this is much less the case. If it’s any comfort at all, it’s the actual licensed dealers who have been leading the charge on cracking down on private sales at gun shows; part of it is the business competition, but it has a _lot_ to do with the bad publicity and LEO scrutiny they undergo as a result, for something they aren’t even engaged in. Nice to know I’m somewhat incorrect. But the fact stands that sales between private individuals are not regulated in any meaningful way, and gun shows are a place where a whole bunch of private individuals with guns to sell are all together in one place. (I guess that matters a lot less than it used to, because presumably private individuals can find places to advertise guns for sale online.) > [@](#): > > Obviously, this is not going to happen, as the media is only responding to market forces. We, you, me, J.Q. Public, are to blame , for being media-junkies and sitting glued to our TV sets when this kind of shit happens. That’s tens, if not hundreds of millions of people “tuned in,” and no network is going to let the ad revenue stream go to waste, so they go into “24-hour” coverage mode, which in turn helps feed the next maladjusted whack-job out there thinking “fuckitall!” And just as obviously, this is rank speculation on your part. (And please don’t use clustering of such incidents in time as evidence, otherwise I’ll have to introduce you to my old stochastic friend, the [arrival process](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markovian_arrival_processes).) > [@](#): > > The current federal regulatory scheme controlling/prohibiting people with mental disorders from purchasing any gun is the Gun Control Act of 1968; a person has to be declared, _abjudicated_, mentally defective by a judge, for them to be prohibited from owning or transacting firearms. IOW, HIPAA is not the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/410 "2012-12-15T19:43:51Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > [Doesn’t look that way to me.](http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.aspx) I don’t see a consistent trend here. Thanks. Fits with what I was aware of. Didn’t know about the recent spike and didn’t know the source was a Gallup pole. Is it a bit ironic that the recent spike seems to be almost entirely the result of increases in gun ownership by Democrats? ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/411 "2012-12-15T19:51:31Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > IOW, HIPAA is not the problem. I agree it isn’t the roadblock right now, but it is probably a roadblock to simplifying the reporting process. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/412 "2012-12-15T20:02:55Z")
HIPAA is irrelevant, it’s just Federal law. Any hypothetical scenario in which new gun laws are established Congress has just as much power to write into that law exceptions to HIPAA and mandated reporting of things by medical professionals and mandated transmission of results from psychiatric exams and etc as it does the authority to write HIPAA in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/413 "2012-12-15T20:12:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And being marginally polite doesn’t disguise your smarmy attitude or the deep and abiding racism and sexism of the era you are constantly eulogizing. You may not have noticed, but sexism and racism was only a part of the era I am constantly eulogizing, and they’re never the qualities of it which I eulogize. Plus they could have been corrected without all the damage caused by your way of dealing with it. And let’s face it, both of those came rather late to the party anyway. The main thrust of the counterculture revolution was to promote drugs, bed-hopping and freedom from responsibility. The feminist movement arose in its wake and the civil rights movement, which had been rolling along quite effectively on its own, got piggy-backed only some time after that. But hey, with friends like you guys who needs enemies. Now thanks to you we’ve got a black community where the schools are the pits; kids are having kids right and left with the fathers rarely in evidence; drugs and gangs and street crime proliferate; and where every negative and self-defeating behavior that springs forth is promoted by you and defended against with charges of racism. I’d much rather be a black parent raising a child in most of the segregated black communities of the sixties, where the schools and daily life more closely mirrored that of white communities, than trying to raise one in the environment you’ve created today. > [@Marley23](#): > > Then I guess it isn’t working. If you are trying to defend yourself against something and the something keeps happening, is the defense effective? It is if the possibility of your having a gun kept you from safe from intrusion, or it allowed you to capture or shoot your intruder. It’s a disingenuous dodge to try to take the position that gun ownership is intended to reduce crime rather than defend against it. Gun ownership may tend to suppress crime in some secondary and unintentional way by making would-be miscreants think twice, or it may simply shift it onto someone else by causing the asshole to move on to a more vulnerable target. But either way, the intent of gun ownership is neither of those - it’s simply to provide the ability to thwart the bad guys if and and when they came after you and yours. > [@Marley23](#): > > No, there aren’t. “For sure” is not a magical incantation that turns your fantasies into reality. When you say “one thing’s for sure” after dismissing facts and statistics, what you are actually saying is “I don’t care what’s happening, this is how I FEEEEEEEEEL.” Which is, ironically, the kind of touchy-feely liberal attitude you’re always whining about. No, it’s not what I feel; it’s what I see! On the one hand I see that my city had 200 murders last year and this year we’re on track to have 330, and that virtually no one I know is untouched in some way by crime, and on the other I have you pointing to unverifiable statistics claiming that crime is going down, and so according to you I’m supposed to think that all is well and no problem exists at all? As I said before, even if you’re right and crime has gone down, it’s still at a highly unacceptable level and it’s still perfectly reasonable for people to want to own guns to protect themselves from it. We have people being killed for their fucking shoes and rims and in $20 drug deals for crying out loud, and you wonder why people think crime is out of hand? Until we start taking steps to keep people from growing up in ways that make this kind of behavior acceptable we’re just going to get more and more of the same. You need schools that function according to their intended purpose, where kids have to behave and learn their subjects; and you need mature, responsible parents at home making their kids behave and instilling in them the values they need to function properly in society when they grow up. Unfortunately these are not compatible with the lib/Dem approach to societal governance. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/414 "2012-12-15T20:36:49Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Y > We have people being killed for their fucking shoes and rims and in $20 drug deals for crying out loud, and you wonder why people think crime is out of hand? My advice would be to stop buying drugs rather than carry a gun. I mean really, you are driving around in your car with $1,500 rims buying drugs and wearing $250 shoes. What do you expect? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/415 "2012-12-15T20:46:17Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, it’s not what I feel; it’s what I see! On the one hand I see that my city had 200 murders last year and this year we’re on track to have 330 How many murders did your city have in 1990? 1980? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/416 "2012-12-15T20:47:46Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You may not have noticed, but sexism and racism was only a part of the era I am constantly eulogizing, and they’re never the qualities of it which I eulogize. Yes, although I’ve never seen you condemn them and I’ve never seen you give them anything approaching the appropriate weight (somehow you think a decline in manners is more important than gains in right for a majority of people). And I’ve never seen even a flicker of comprehension on your part that some other people might’ve had a slightly different take on that era (women, gays, black people) if they didn’t share your privileged, clueless experience. > [@](#): > > Plus they could have been corrected without all the damage caused by your way of dealing with it. And here we see how this attitude is mirrored on issues like gun control: ‘this problem can’t be solved, if you do anything that inconveniences anyone it’s counterproductive and will make it worse, and anyway, there is no problem and everything is fine.’ To my reading this is some pretty severe cognitive dissonance. To the civil rights issue you can add “it was going to work itself out anyway,” since people have short memories for inconvenient facts (fortunate because there’s no evidence for this concept). > [@](#): > > I’d much rather be a black parent raising a child in most of the segregated black communities of the sixties, where the schools and daily life more closely mirrored that of white communities, than trying to raise one in the environment you’ve created today. I bet you would. But then, you’re a fucking moron, and those are the kinds of things fucking morons think. > [@](#): > > It is if the possibility of your having a gun kept you from safe from intrusion, or it allowed you to capture or shoot your intruder. It’s a disingenuous dodge to try to take the position that gun ownership is intended to reduce crime rather than defend against it. Tell me how society can effectively defend itself against crime without reducing crime. > [@](#): > > Gun ownership may tend to suppress crime in some secondary and unintentional way by making would-be miscreants think twice, or it may simply shift it onto someone else by causing the asshole to move on to a more vulnerable target. I’d ask you to find some facts to support this, but you don’t believe in facts, so… do you have any unverified anecdotes from friends or neighbors or fictional people? > [@](#): > > No, it’s not what I feel; it’s what I see! Right, and we have already established that you’re too stupid to understand that your experience isn’t universal across different locations or times. > [@](#): > > my city had 200 murders last year and this year we’re on track to have 330 > [@](#): > > I have you pointing to unverifiable statistics Right back atcha. If you can’t acknowledge the reality of any fact or statistic, why should anyone assume your stories are true? Particularly when you post so much bullshit and generally have your head up your ass about everything that has happened to anyone except you in the last 50 years. > [@](#): > > Until we start taking steps to keep people from growing up in ways that make this kind of behavior acceptable we’re just going to get more and more of the same. You need schools that function according to their intended purpose, where kids have to behave and learn their subjects; and you need mature, responsible parents at home making their kids behave and instilling in them the values they need to function properly in society when they grow up. > > Unfortunately these are not compatible with the lib/Dem approach to societal governance. That’s weird. Democrats keep saying we should pay teachers better and put more money into schools and more support to poor people while conservatives keep arguing “I’ve got mine, fuck those people” and somehow everything that doesn’t work is the fault of the Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/417 "2012-12-15T20:48:36Z")
I would expect the same thing that a woman wearing a short skirt would expect - that if I got raped, it would be the rapist’s fault! Is it really your opinion that anyone driving an expensive car, dressed nicely, or living in an affluent neighborhood is fair game for murder and, after all they were just asking for it? How old are you? Believe it or not, once upon a time in this country most people were of the believe that it’s always wrong to steal stuff from other people, whether they had more than you or not. And hold onto your seat, but murder was _always_ condemned! Hard to believe, huh? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/418 "2012-12-15T20:53:06Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > How many murders did your city have in 1990? 1980? Don’t know. Haven’t been able to find out. Haven’t been able to find out how many murders occurred anywhere in any year of the past, except for one site that seems to have all the statistics but which seems biased (right-wing, believe it or not) and only minimally verifiable, and not all that accurate to the degree it can be verified, even at that. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/419 "2012-12-15T20:57:03Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Don’t know. Haven’t been able to find out. Haven’t been able to find out how many murders occurred anywhere in any year of the past, except for one site that seems to have all the statistics but which seems biased (right-wing, believe it or not) and only minimally verifiable, and not all that accurate to the degree it can be verified, even at that. I don’t believe you. What city do you live in? I’ll have the figures in ten minutes. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/420 "2012-12-15T21:01:28Z")
I did find, though, that there is no city in America that fits the description of having 200 murders in 2011 and being on track for 330 this year. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=22)