# 27 dead, 18 children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050 "2012-12-14T18:38:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/421 "2012-12-15T21:03:00Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s weird. Democrats keep saying we should pay teachers better and put more money into schools and more support to poor people while conservatives keep arguing “I’ve got mine, fuck those people” and somehow everything that doesn’t work is the fault of the Democrats. Reposting in hopes that SA will respond. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/422 "2012-12-15T21:06:25Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Is it really your opinion that anyone driving an expensive car, dressed nicely, or living in an affluent neighborhood is fair game for murder and, after all they were just asking for it? Given that I’ve never said anything even the slightest bit like this, no, that’s not my opinion. My opinion is that your views are based on emotion and not reason, that they make no sense, and that you’re willfully ignorant of the facts. Any other moronic questions? Want to ask what I’m doing for the War on Christmas this year or how many terrorists I took into the country last week? > [@](#): > > Believe it or not, once upon a time in this country most people were of the believe that it’s always wrong to steal stuff from other people, whether they had more than you or not. Yes, for a brief period between the eras of colonialism, slavery, Jim Crow, the Gilded Age, the Depression and the Dust Bowl, internment, and the horrors of the Civil Rights Act and Woodstock, everybody agreed that stealing was wrong. (I do have to partially conceded your you have a point; there was widespread agreement that stealing from people with _more_ than you was wrong - but stealing from people with less than you was awesome!) Then a bunch of dark and female people nobody had ever noticed started demanding stuff and it got ruined. I don’t know what their problem was. > [@RickJay](#): > > How many murders did your city have in 1990? 1980? You know he doesn’t fucking know. If he looked it up online, a mulatto from a broken home might sneak into his house through the internet and murder him for his shoes. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/423 "2012-12-15T21:43:33Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > Along with 8 to 10 thousand gun murders per year in the USA, we have around 18 thousand gun suicides. Guns do the lethal job far more effectively than other methods which is why more suicide attempts are “successful” in the USA than other countries. Do you have a cite for this? Because I know for a fact that gunshot wounds from a pistol are not “far more” effective than all other methods. That’s blatantly false. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/424 "2012-12-15T21:53:11Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Is it really your opinion that anyone driving an expensive car, dressed nicely, or living in an affluent neighborhood is fair game for murder and, after all they were just asking for it? Wow, you must live in a real anomaly of a city. Not only is crime up, but rich, affluent people in nice neighborhoods are the victims. > [@](#): > > How old are you? Probably same age as you, but I don’t sit on my porch with a loaded gun warning kids to keep off my lawn. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/425 "2012-12-15T21:53:51Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Yes, although I’ve never seen you condemn them and I’ve never seen you give them anything approaching the appropriate weight What would be the point? There is no shortage of people around here who are happy to excuse the damage they’ve done to this country using that as the reason. Besides, they weren’t the defining qualities of that era just like the sexism and racism that exists today doesn’t seem to define society in your eyes. > [@Marley23](#): > > (somehow you think a decline in manners is more important than gains in right for a majority of people). Utterly ridiculous. The one has nothing to do with the other. > [@Marley23](#): > > And I’ve never seen even a flicker of comprehension on your part that some other people might’ve had a slightly different take on that era (women, gays, black people) if they didn’t share your privileged, clueless experience. Certainly blacks and gays have it better now. Many women of the previous era resented the women’s movement and many women today lead stressful, unhappy lives compared to the way women lived back then, so who knows if they’re better off? One thing I do know is that millions of kids who’ve been born since then are a hell of a lot worse off, thanks to the illegitimacy rate, absentee parents, inadequate to atrocious schools, and the drugs and criminality that now permeate every school and level of society. And I know that a hell of a lot of them have become drug addicts, and that a hell of a lot of them have been murdered, and that a hell of a lot of them have committed murder, and that a hell of a lot of them will live utterly shitty lives because of the way they grew up, and that a hell of a lot of us have been and will be victimized by them, and that you’ve never shown a flicker comprehension for the role your ideology has played in creating this state of affairs or a flicker of concern over their/our plight as a result. > [@Marley23](#): > > I bet you would. But then, you’re a fucking moron, and those are the kinds of things fucking morons think. What is it with you clowns and “moron?” Do you really think you accomplish anything with that? Do you really think that starting to sound more like **Lobohan** the more we argue is really convincing anyone that you’re the intellectually superior one here? So you really think that by calling me names you have the slightest impact on my self-esteem? Are you not aware that I do have and have had input all my life from people in the real world that have given me a fairly accurate idea of my intelligence? During all my school years and during all my employment, my teachers and my co-workers and the people I worked for and with have all been smilingly effusive in their approval of my intelligence. In short, I may not be a genius, but I’m no fucking dummy and you only make yourself look stupid by calling me a moron. Especially when you continue to make fallacious errors like the following: > [@Marley23](#): > > Tell me how society can effectively defend itself against crime without reducing crime. I haven’t told you that society can effectively defend itself against crime without reducing crime. All I’ve said is that most people who own guns buy them to protect themselves from the possibility that they may become victims of crime. You’re the one who’s illogically leapt from that to gun ownership as a crime reduction tool to society alleged defending itself from crime through gun ownership, and then to top it off you seek to ridicule me for your own ridiculous extrapolations. Moron. 😃 > [@Marley23](#): > > Right back atcha. If you can’t acknowledge the reality of any fact or statistic, why should anyone assume your stories are true? Particularly when you post so much bullshit and generally have your head up your ass about everything that has happened to anyone except you in the last 50 years. I note that you really aren’t denying any of my allegations about what liberal philosophies and practices have done to this country the last fifty years, you’re just pissed that I don’t think it was worth it. Well, you’re right about that last part. Intelligence and deliberate planned intent could have produced the same progress in human rights, as had already happened with women’s rights in having gained the vote, eliminating prohibition, and advances in the civil rights movement and legislation, all of which predated the counterculture revolution which was the causative agent for so many of the problems we have now. > [@Marley23](#): > > That’s weird. Democrats keep saying we should pay teachers better and put more money into schools and more support to poor people while conservatives keep arguing “I’ve got mine, fuck those people” and somehow everything that doesn’t work is the fault of the Democrats. I personally have never known a conservative whose attitude was “I’ve got mine, fuck those people.” I’ve known some who thought “I’ve worked hard for what I have, let them work hard for what they want,” or “Once you let the government start supporting people, it becomes a trap they never escape from.” This last has certainly proven true. And yes, Democrats keep saying they want to pay more money to bad teachers that your unions have made it impossible to fire. And you want to pour more money into schools where you’ve dumbed down the curriculum to make it “fair” or where you’ve decided to pass kids from one grade to the next even when they haven’t learned the material because to fail them is hard on their self-esteem. Somehow everyone, including almost everyone in the minority communities, got good educations in the fifties and sixties when local sales taxes were much lower and welfare programs and housing projects didn’t exist. Remember those well-dressed black kids trying to get into white schools in the sixties? They already knew how to read and do math and pass tests and do all the things white kids could do. You know why they can’t do that now? It isn’t because the amount of money we send to our schools has changed, it’s because our society has changed, and it’s changed in ways that make it all but impossible for them to get a good education. They don’t have two mature stable parents at home. They don’t get taught proper values. They don’t get discipline at home, and they don’t get discipline at school. They get bombarded with drugs and criminality and negative societal influences through music and youth culture. And then they have you people who created this situation in the first place defending all this crap every step of the way and and blaming all their problems on the conservatives whose values once provided them with the educations they no longer have any hope of receiving. Sheesh! I need a drink! ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/426 "2012-12-15T21:55:47Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > Wow, you must live in a real anomaly of a city. Not only is crime up, but rich, affluent people in nice neighborhoods are the victims. No, it’s just a logical extension of your apparent belief that anyone who obviously has nice things is asking for it and deserves to be murdered. Rich, affluent people in nice neighborhoods have nice things. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/427 "2012-12-15T22:01:10Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Given that I’ve never said anything even the slightest bit like this, no, that’s not my opinion. My opinion is that your views are based on emotion and not reason, that they make no sense, and that you’re willfully ignorant of the facts. Any other moronic questions? Yes. Why did you think this question was aimed at you? It was pretty clearly a response to **fumster’s** nonsense. Even he was able to figure that out. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/428 "2012-12-15T22:01:21Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > What would be the point? It would indicate that you give a shit about anything or anyone else. But you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/429 "2012-12-15T22:02:48Z")
Are **Marley23** and **Starving Artist** having some sort of lover’s quarrel? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/430 "2012-12-15T22:04:03Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Are **Marley23** and **Starving Artist** having some sort of lover’s quarrel? First time in The BBQ Pit? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/431 "2012-12-15T22:04:07Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It would indicate that you give a shit about anything or anyone else. But you don’t. Oh, I give a shit about a lot of things and a lot of people, many of whom are people and things you profess to care about. But your side doesn’t come off very well when I do so you ignore it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/432 "2012-12-15T22:09:12Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Oh, I give a shit about a lot of things and a lot of people You give a shit about two groups of people: people who are just like you and people you’re afraid will rob you. Everyone else and everything else is unimportant because their lives and rights are less important than your prissy need for a pretend 1950s civility. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/433 "2012-12-15T22:16:45Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > HIPAA is irrelevant, it’s just Federal law. Any hypothetical scenario in which new gun laws are established Congress has just as much power to write into that law exceptions to HIPAA and mandated reporting of things by medical professionals and mandated transmission of results from psychiatric exams and etc as it does the authority to write HIPAA in the first place. I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss it out of hand. You are correct that exceptions could be written into fun laws, but it won’t be simple. That is going to bring slippery slope fear lingers out of the woodwork. Fuelling the resistance to the passage of firearms reform to beyond just the gun nuts and the second amendmentsr’s. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/434 "2012-12-15T22:16:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You give a shit about two groups of people: people who are just like you and people you’re afraid will rob you. Everyone else and everything else is unimportant because their lives and rights are less important than your prissy need for a pretend 1950s civility. Nah, that’s just a convenient dodge you use to try to deflect attention away from all the damage you’ve caused. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/435 "2012-12-15T22:17:29Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Are **Marley23** and **Starving Artist** having some sort of lover’s quarrel? That’s not even possible. Marley is not a 12 year old boy. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/436 "2012-12-15T22:20:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You give a shit about two groups of people: people who are just like you and people you’re afraid will rob you. Everyone else and everything else is unimportant because their lives and rights are less important than your prissy need for a pretend 1950s civility. Don’t forget Joe Paterno. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/437 "2012-12-15T22:20:56Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > That’s not even possible. Marley is not a 12 year old boy. It may be possible. How far from the floor is Marley’s anus? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/438 "2012-12-15T22:26:05Z")
Just remember what **SA** gets to call it, kids, when you aren’t able to honestly rebut arguments and you have to resort to lies and misdirection instead… Here’s a hint: Charlie Sheen! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/439 "2012-12-15T22:29:30Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > First time in The BBQ Pit? Yes. What I’m commenting on is it seems you guys have some of pre-existing beef that I hadn’t noticed til this thread. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/440 "2012-12-15T22:35:05Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I personally have never known a conservative whose attitude was “I’ve got mine, fuck those people.” I’ve known some who thought “I’ve worked hard for what I have, let them work hard for what they want,” or **“Once you let the government start supporting people, it becomes a trap they never escape from.” This last has certainly proven true.** > > ! yea, because my family and I are still on food stamps and my kids are still on TennCare :rolleyes: It was so hard to break free I tell ya, they put a gun to my head and said I could never escape :smack:. It reminded me of the Hotel California [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=23)