# 27 dead, 18 children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050 "2012-12-14T18:38:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Klaatu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Klaatu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Klaatu)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/461 "2012-12-16T05:12:29Z")
Let’s assume a regular citizen no longer had or could get a gun. How will that stop school massacres? Plenty of ways for psycho kids to commit mass murder without guns. Eeevil Looking Guns are just the “cool” way for these wackos to do it now. Take away guns and you will see “really cool” ways for these fucked up kids to murder people in large numbers. I leave it to your imagination. It will never stop. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/462 "2012-12-16T07:18:10Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > The only magical thinking is your imaginative claim that a man ready to commit 108 felonies including killing his mother and himself is going to let a law stop him from making an illegal or black market purchase. Laws didn’t deter him from committing murder, so why do you think the law would magically deter him from an illegal weapons buy? I’m with you, I don’t think we should have laws against murder. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/463 "2012-12-16T07:19:52Z")
> [@Klaatu](#): > > Let’s assume a regular citizen no longer had or could get a gun. How will that stop school massacres? Plenty of ways for psycho kids to commit mass murder without guns. > > Eeevil Looking Guns are just the “cool” way for these wackos to do it now. Take away guns and you will see “really cool” ways for these fucked up kids to murder people in large numbers. > > I leave it to your imagination. > > It will never stop. Drive by pool drownings is my guess. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/464 "2012-12-16T10:49:19Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > Drive by pool drownings is my guess. [Home-made flamethrowers,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cologne_school_massacre) actually. Or homemade [bombs.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster) Oh, were you kidding? In Michigan, 38 kids, second to sixth graders, were murdered by a maniac, and not one bullet hit one square inch of flesh. If the worst you can imagine is drive-by pool drownings, I envy your innocence of mind. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/465 "2012-12-16T11:27:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In Michigan, 38 kids, second to sixth graders, were murdered by a maniac, and not one bullet hit one square inch of flesh. If the worst you can imagine is drive-by pool drownings, I envy your innocence of mind. 1927? You had to reach back pretty far for that one. How many firearm related school massacres have occurred in the nearly 100 years since? Since those days dynamite has become pretty difficult for the average citizen to obtain. If it weren’t controlled and regulated like it is we might see as many school bombings today as we do school gun massacres though, so you’re right about that. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/466 "2012-12-16T11:32:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > [Home-made flamethrowers,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cologne_school_massacre) actually. Or homemade [bombs.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster) > > Oh, were you kidding? > > In Michigan, 38 kids, second to sixth graders, were murdered by a maniac, and not one bullet hit one square inch of flesh. If the worst you can imagine is drive-by pool drownings, I envy your innocence of mind. What are you getting at here? That there are ways other than guns that lunatics can spree kill? I agree. Most of them use guns, though. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/467 "2012-12-16T11:47:14Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > What are you getting at here? That there are ways other than guns that lunatics can spree kill? I agree. Most of them use guns, though. Most use whatever is at hand. The point I am making is that if guns are not available, other tools can and will and HAVE been used to carry out murderous impulses. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/468 "2012-12-16T12:08:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Most use whatever is at hand. The point I am making is that if guns are not available, other tools can and will and HAVE been used to carry out murderous impulses. Not at the same rate, however. Widely available guns make it easier. I have no illusion that we can eliminate tragedies like this. But we can reduce the occurence by making it harder for potential shooters to get guns. Force them to work harder to find a suitable weapon, and some of them will give up. Plus, some of them are just gun fetishists; other weapons simply don’t give them the same pleasure as shooting a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/469 "2012-12-16T12:09:52Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > The only magical thinking is your imaginative claim that a man ready to commit 108 felonies including killing his mother and himself is going to let a law stop him from making an illegal or black market purchase. Laws didn’t deter him from committing murder, so why do you think the law would magically deter him from an illegal weapons buy? Because if there isn’t a massive supply of legal weapons and ammo out there, there won’t be an illegal one either. Criminals aren’t running their own private arms industry after all; they just steal what they want, or buy it at some gun show by the crateful. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/470 "2012-12-16T12:19:45Z")
In other words, dry the swamp. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/471 "2012-12-16T12:40:38Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because if there isn’t a massive supply of legal weapons and ammo out there, there won’t be an illegal one either. Criminals aren’t running their own private arms industry after all; they just steal what they want, or buy it at some gun show by the crateful. _shrug_ OK, it would be a wonderful thing if we could dry up the supply of illegal stuff by outlawing it. I agree. I’m just trying to envision a model where that works. The nearest thing I can think of is the “War on Drugs” and its predecessor, alcohol prohibition. Have those efforts generally been successful in limiting people from getting access to harmful things? If you feel it’s succeeded, is it enough success to justify the cost? If you feel it’s failed, why do you think gun prohibition would go any better? It’s not that we haven’t tried these approaches. A generation ago someone looked at drugs and said “I have no idea if it will work…but we have to do SOMETHING, ANYTHING!” Sounds very familiar. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/472 "2012-12-16T12:42:32Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > In other words, dry the swamp. It worked for the Dutch and we hired them to help us with the Fenlands too. Alternatively, you could just spend your lives up to your ass in alligators and cry when someone gets eaten. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/473 "2012-12-16T13:05:59Z")
I heard on the radio the other day that Detroit had their x murder that day and had already broken last year’s number, which was one of the highest in the nation. But overall in the US, violent crimes were trending downward. Ah, and here is an article which supports that. > **[Detroit Crime Statistics: Michigan (MI) - CityRating.com](https://www.cityrating.com/crime-statistics/michigan/detroit.html)** > > Detroit crime statistics including violent and property crime rates, with murder, rape, assault, arson, larceny, burglary and car theft data reports. Detroit, Michigan crime report (MI). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/474 "2012-12-16T13:15:30Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > _shrug_ OK, it would be a wonderful thing if we could dry up the supply of illegal stuff by outlawing it. I agree. I’m just trying to envision a model where that works. The nearest thing I can think of is the “War on Drugs” and its predecessor, alcohol prohibition. Have those efforts generally been successful in limiting people from getting access to harmful things? If you feel it’s succeeded, is it enough success to justify the cost? If you feel it’s failed, why do you think gun prohibition would go any better? Because it isn’t the same. If people hide out of sight and use their drugs or alcohol, then prohibition has failed; if they hide their guns, then a gun ban has worked. Unlike drugs and alcohol, you have to go out and find an unwilling victim; shootings aren’t “victimless crimes” where both people involved are cooperating to avoid the law. And hidden guns are much harder for criminals to steal as well. And because restrictions and bans on guns have worked all over the world in all sorts of places; we know it can be done. Restrictions on weapons in general work much better than restrictions on drugs; if the silly “outlawing guns means only outlaws will have guns” claim actually held true then criminals would be annihilating the cops with everything from rocket launchers to heavy machine guns. Guns = drugs is a false analogy. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/475 "2012-12-16T13:17:33Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > I heard on the radio the other day that Detroit had their x murder that day and had already broken last year’s number, which was one of the highest in the nation. But overall in the US, violent crimes were trending downward. > > Ah, and here is an article which supports that. > > [Detroit Crime Statistics: Michigan (MI) - CityRating.com](http://www.cityrating.com/crime-statistics/michigan/detroit.html#.UM3G16yAqSo) Just to back that up further, here are [FBI violent crime statistics](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/violent-crime/violent-crime): > [@](#): > > Overview > > ``` > In 2011, an estimated 1,203,564 violent crimes occurred nationwide, a decrease of 3.8 percent from the 2010 estimate. > When considering 5- and 10-year trends, the 2011 estimated violent crime total was 15.4 percent below the 2007 level and 15.5 percent below the 2002 level. > There were an estimated 386.3 violent crimes per 100,000 inhabitants in 2011. > Aggravated assaults accounted for the highest number of violent crimes reported to law enforcement at 62.4 percent. Robbery comprised 29.4 percent of violent crimes, forcible rape accounted for 6.9 percent, and murder accounted for 1.2 percent of estimated violent crimes in 2011. > Information collected regarding type of weapon showed that firearms were used in 67.7 percent of the nation’s murders, 41.3 percent of robberies, and 21.2 percent of aggravated assaults. (Weapons data are not collected for forcible rape.) (See Expanded Homicide Data Table 7, Robbery Table 3, and the Aggravated Assault Table.) > > ``` And here’s the FBI data specifically for [murders](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/violent-crime/murder): > [@](#): > > Overview > > ``` > In 2011, an estimated 14,612 persons were murdered in the United States. This was a 0.7 percent decrease from the 2010 estimate, a 14.7 percent decline from the 2007 figure, and a 10.0 percent decrease from the 2002 estimate. > There were 4.7 murders per 100,000 inhabitants, a 1.5 percent decrease from the 2010 rate. Compared with the 2007 rate, the murder rate declined 17.4 percent, and compared with the 2002 rate, the murder rate decreased 16.8 percent. (See Tables 1 and 1A.) > Nearly 44 percent (43.6) of murders were reported in the South, the most populous region, 21.0 percent were reported in the West, 20.6 percent were reported in the Midwest, and 14.8 percent were reported in the Northeast. (See Table 3.) > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/476 "2012-12-16T14:17:34Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > 1927? You had to reach back pretty far for that one. How many firearm related school massacres have occurred in the nearly 100 years since? > > Since those days dynamite has become pretty difficult for the average citizen to obtain. If it weren’t controlled and regulated like it is we might see as many school bombings today as we do school gun massacres though, so you’re right about that. Just googling it shows that is is a favorite cite by gun rights activists. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/477 "2012-12-16T14:31:00Z")
> [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > Well, [the obvious happens.](http://www.examiner.com/article/westboro-church-plans-to-picket-at-sandy-hook-elementary-school-praising-god) > > Westboro planning to picket at the school. Just like **Starving Artist** said! You just gotta look at all the good in the world, like him and his fellow conservatives. I swear, **SA** sees the world in shades of Norman Rockwell, and can never look beyond the cover of his proverbial Saturday Evening Post. The liberals or hippies didn’t piss on and ruin your quaint world, **SA.** It was always a veneer—a fantasy. Reality is and always has been like what you see in the photo linked above. Times weren’t really all that better then. Evil and depravity were just hiding and manifesting in different ways; as they’ll continue to do. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/478 "2012-12-16T14:54:46Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > 1927? You had to reach back pretty far for that one. How many firearm related school massacres have occurred in the nearly 100 years since? > > Since those days dynamite has become pretty difficult for the average citizen to obtain. If it weren’t controlled and regulated like it is we might see as many school bombings today as we do school gun massacres though, so you’re right about that. In addition to dynamite becoming more difficult to obtain, nitrogen fertilizer, since the 1970’s and the Oklahoma City bombing, has become more regulated. We don’t seem afraid of regulating those things, but not guns. Why? I blame the money gun manufacturers have put into the NRA and anti-gun regulation politics. “The Constitution is not a suicide pact”. Originally said in relation to limiting 4th and 5th amendment rights of terror suspects, but should apply equally to the 2nd amendment to help limit mass killings. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/479 "2012-12-16T15:28:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > [Home-made flamethrowers,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cologne_school_massacre) actually. Or homemade [bombs.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster) > > Oh, were you kidding? > > In Michigan, 38 kids, second to sixth graders, were murdered by a maniac, and not one bullet hit one square inch of flesh. If the worst you can imagine is drive-by pool drownings, I envy your innocence of mind. Your mighty logic has changed my mind. I thought there were no other ways to kill people than guns. Now that I know there are, I think we should sell guns in vending machines. In other news, I just found out that seat belts don’t stop all deaths from car accidents so I just removed mine. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/480 "2012-12-16T15:41:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Most use whatever is at hand. The point I am making is that if guns are not available, other tools can and will and HAVE been used to carry out murderous impulses. Timothy McVeigh comes to mind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=25)