# 27 dead, 18 children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050 "2012-12-14T18:38:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/521 "2012-12-17T01:42:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The cite is in the liar’s post. Nowhere in the cited article is there anything to indicate that Larry Pratt suggested anything even close to “kids should have been shooting back.” A prime example of an irony proof mind. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/522 "2012-12-17T01:42:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The cite is in the liar’s post. Nowhere in the cited article is there anything to indicate that Larry Pratt suggested anything even close to “kids should have been shooting back.” True. He only referred to adults: > [@](#): > > "Gun control supporters have the blood of little children on their hands. Federal and state laws combined to insure that no teacher, no administrator, no adult had a gun at the Newtown school where the children were murdered.’ Is that statement different in a way that matters? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/523 "2012-12-17T01:45:50Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > You’re missing a key point: in 1934, when machine guns first began to be regulated, there weren’t many machine guns around. So the lawmakers had a “clean slate” to work with. That wasn’t the case with ‘ordinary guns’ even in 1934 (much less today). I’m certainly aware of the practical problems with getting rid of the damn things. But that’s a different question from whether or not we need to try. > [@](#): > > Frankly, I’d rather see more mandatory education classes (which would cover such topics as safe handling and storage and state laws on legal versus illegal use of lethal force) over additional background checks, as I think they’d do more to prevent reckless handling and use. Would that stop people with mental illnesses, or people who sometimes get angry? They can all pass those courses too. No, the regular massacres we see are not the result of lack of education on safe handling and storage, are they? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/524 "2012-12-17T01:48:44Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > True. He only referred to adults: > > Is that statement different in a way that matters? Wanting kids to have weapons vs. wanting adults to have weapons? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/525 "2012-12-17T01:51:11Z")
At best you’re taking a stand over the \*degree \*of idiocy there, not its presence. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/526 "2012-12-17T02:02:18Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > So gun control doesn’t work… Unless it does. Correct. And then they want more. And more still. And yet more still after that. And even when they get 99.9% of what they want, it’s not good enough, and, sooner or later they’re back, saying we need _more._ Note the passage about the Hughes Amendment. What purpose did that serve? After 52 years with zero violent crimes committed by legally owned machineguns, they go and enact legislation to make it even harder to obtain them. Gun control advocates often accuse gun rights activists of using a Slippery Slope Fallacy, when the legislative history is freely available for anyone to see. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/527 "2012-12-17T02:08:17Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Correct. And then they want more. And more still. And yet more still after that. > > And even when they get 99.9% of what they want, it’s not good enough, and, sooner or later they’re back, saying we need _more._ Except gun control advocates have never gotten anywhere near to 90% of what they want, or even 10%, so your argument falls flat. Instead we just get some nibbling around the edges while the slaughter goes on. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/528 "2012-12-17T02:15:09Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Correct. And then they want more. And more still. And yet more still after that. > > And even when they get 99.9% of what they want, it’s not good enough, and, sooner or later they’re back, saying we need _more._ > > Note the passage about the Hughes Amendment. What purpose did that serve? After 52 years with zero violent crimes committed by legally owned machineguns, they go and enact legislation to make it even harder to obtain them. > > Gun control advocates often accuse gun rights activists of using a Slippery Slope Fallacy, when the legislative history is freely available for anyone to see. It sure is! How many pieces of gun control legislation have passed in the past decade? How many gun control laws have lapsed? NOW, how many pieces of legislation reducing restrictions on gun owners have passed in the past decade? Over a hundred, thanks. Laws expanding concealed carry, laws authorizing or expanding open carry, the abomination of stand your ground laws, you name it. Yeah, the slippery slope is working alright. You are just lying about which way the slope has been tilting. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/529 "2012-12-17T02:19:38Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Correct. And then they want more. And more still. And yet more still after that. > > And even when they get 99.9% of what they want, it’s not good enough, and, sooner or later they’re back, saying we need _more._ > > Note the passage about the Hughes Amendment. What purpose did that serve? After 52 years with zero violent crimes committed by legally owned machineguns, they go and enact legislation to make it even harder to obtain them. > > Gun control advocates often accuse gun rights activists of using a Slippery Slope Fallacy, when the legislative history is freely available for anyone to see. Right, that’s why there are so few guns in the US. People who wanted guns off the street got the Sullivan Act through and built from there. No, wait, that doesn’t make any sense at all… Anyway, I’ve actually never seen a gun control advocate address automatic weapons. At least a couple posting to this thread just assumed they were illegal in the US. I suspect that laws increasing restrictions on automatics stem from the fact that law enforcement, for sensible reasons, doesn’t want any in criminal hands. That and the NRA possibly knows its limitations. I knew I should preview this, because that line about slippery slopes was a big fat slow pitch. Everybody’s going to swing at that one. I bet by the time I finish this sentence and hit submit, somebody else will have taken a poke at it. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/530 "2012-12-17T02:28:53Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Correct. And then they want more. And more still. And yet more still after that. > > And even when they get 99.9% of what they want, it’s not good enough, and, sooner or later they’re back, saying we need _more._ > > Note the passage about the Hughes Amendment. What purpose did that serve? After 52 years with zero violent crimes committed by legally owned machineguns, they go and enact legislation to make it even harder to obtain them. > > Gun control advocates often accuse gun rights activists of using a Slippery Slope Fallacy, when the legislative history is freely available for anyone to see. ExTank, AFAIK I have never communicated with you on this board before (I say that as a poster who is very Very VERY bad at remembering user names, so I could be wrong). But in the few exchanges we’ve had in this thread, you strike me as a reasonable person. I am not passionate about gun ownership nor am I passionate about abolishing the 2nd Amendment. I understand both sides to some degree. So here is my question: Would you agree that there IS a problem that BOTH sides can get behind? That problem, of course, is that guns (esp semi-auto weapons) in the wrong hands can be catastrophic, lethal, and devastating to those on the wrong end of the trigger (often simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time). If we agree on that, please lmk what you would suggest as a solution or at least a way to minimize the problem? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/531 "2012-12-17T03:22:21Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > That’s right. Over at another board they were talking about what I said and someone pointed out they thought I was wrong because some of the conservatives they knew got pissed off every time they mentioned some liberal talking point. And that person was right. But being happy doesn’t mean you never get pissed off. The thing is though, what pisses conservatives off mostly is liberals. What pisses liberals off mostly is life. And therein lies the rub. Conservatives tend to take life as it comes, knowing that to a certain extent shit happens and it always will, and we tend to concentrate on the good things that exist and to be thankful and grateful for them, while liberals concentrate on everything that is wrong and worrying/wringing their hands/getting pissed off about them. And getting pissed off at conservatives for not worrying/wringing their hands/getting pissed off about them too. This is why you guys think we’re mean and heartless. You think we just don’t care, when the reality is that we know shit happens and you can’t fix every ill in the world and we’d rather spend our time accomplishing stuff and enjoying the many good things that nevertheless abound in life. > > When I was younger adults would counsel me on the benefits of looking at a glass that was half filled as being half-full rather than half-empty. At the time I thought it was a meaningless lesson, as I regarded myself as a realist and the truth was that there was half a glass of liquid there and full or empty made no difference. But now I know better. The difference occurs in your outlook it manifests in your overall approach to life. To the person who tends to see the glass as half full, the world is a happier place. To the person who tends to see it negatively as being half empty, the world is a negative and unhappy place. So truly, conservatives, by virtue of their untroubled acceptance of life’s adversities and cognizance and appreciation of its many wonders, blessings and enjoyments, very much tend to be happier than our whingeier liberal brethren. > > How many times on this board have I said that of course evil and bad things happened prior to the great societal upheaval of the late sixties, and that it’s only in comparison with the way things are now that it appears golden? > > You forget that I spent around 21 to 22 years of my life in this country before all that shit started and began to have an effect. I know perfectly well what it was like then, and I watched in disgust and disbelief every step of the way as it’s been descending into the disfunctional cesspool that it’s becoming now. > > Every word I’ve said in this thread about life in those days is true and that’s why no one has rebutted it other than to lamely claim like you have that it never existed in the first place, or to fall back on the well-worn excuse that it was all worth it because “we had racism back then” - as if that was the reason for it in the first place (or as if it was the only solution…or as if we don’t still have it _now_! :smack:). > > This country has been on a downhill slide for fifty years and everyone knows it. We can’t educate our kids; we have a huge underclass of people growing up virtually parentless, uneducated and ill-prepared for life on their own and on their way to lives of crime and/or various forms of government-paid subsistence to get them through their lives, as has also been the case for many of their mothers; we’ve taken on huge amounts of debt and undertaken spending programs that have left us broke; we have entire cities that have become shitholes (Detroit, New Orleans, etc.); drugs and criminality has infested every school and every neighborhood in every city; gangs and now cartel activity is everywhere; etc., etc., etc. I could go on and on and you know damn well I could. > > And virtually none of this was a problem in the fifties and sixties. It all began with the societal changes of the late sixties and the breakdown of values it heralded, and with the Great Society and quasi-socialistic government policies that have followed in its wake. > > What all of this is leading up to in terms of this thread is that we now have a huge number of disaffected, fucked-up kids in this country who are rudderless and valueless and confused about life and their role in it, and who have been bullied and made fun of by other kids raised on a diet of obnoxious television shows and internet assholery, who become angry at the fucked up society they perhaps rightly view as responsible for their fucked up place in life, and, being immature and not realizing that it’s only temporary, they grab a gun and start taking out their anger and frustration on whatever targets for whatever reason strike their fancy. > > And it’s only gonna get worse, kids. Until the time comes that people wise up and realize that you can’t have a properly functioning society when you abandon values and discipline and responsibility and adopt the attitude that no one has a right to tell anyone else what to do, we’re only going to see more and more of the ills we’re wrestling with now and things are only gonna get worse. > > But by all means continue to stick your head in the sand and pretend all this just fell from the sky. Eventually it’ll get bad enough that people will decide it’s time to put the toothpaste back in the tube, but of course by then things will have gotten so far out of hand that the backlash will probably be closer to fascism…and then _that_ will be your fault too. 😃 A pity. You cast judgement when you could practice understanding and you spew ignorance when you could offer perspective. You’re hardly the only one on this message board who grew up during the 50s/60s, and I’ve never seen anyone guild it the way you do. Pining for an unstable, _Leave It To Beaver_ society so horribly, and you think we’re the hand wringers with our heads in the sand? You’re tilting at windmills so myopically you can’t see where the real enemies are. Your post is so full of righteous bullshit, I could barely read it without pinching my nose. You see the state of affairs how you want to see them, so you can preach about the wholesome days of the 50s where every good boy and girl said “yessir” and “yes ma’am” and we all mindlessly repeated grace at the dinner table for the umpteenth fucking time, always dressed up in their sunday best to go to town, and never questioned authority or disrespected your elders. As if that represented the whole of America at the time. All that’s happened was the counter culture of the 60s pulled your curtain back and revealed the smoke and mirrors for what it was. Of course everybody busted out the sex, drugs and rock and roll. And now you think this is the nail in America’s Apple Pie coffin, but it’s not. How far back to you want to keep pointing fingers, and how far in the future do you want to keep predicting armageddon to keep your comfy spot on Mt. Self Righteous? Because there, you’re the King. It’s good to be the King. So long as you’re okay, everything’s okay. _The only way to not be okay, is by stepping too far and slidding down the slippery slope of your mountain… and when you hit rock bottom, don’t say I didn’t tell you so!_ ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/532 "2012-12-17T03:55:11Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > Right, that’s why there are so few guns in the US. People who wanted guns off the street got the Sullivan Act through and built from there. No, wait, that doesn’t make any sense at all… > > Anyway, I’ve actually never seen a gun control advocate address automatic weapons. At least a couple posting to this thread just assumed they were illegal in the US. I suspect that laws increasing restrictions on automatics stem from the fact that law enforcement, for sensible reasons, doesn’t want any in criminal hands. That and the NRA possibly knows its limitations. > > I knew I should preview this, because that line about slippery slopes was a big fat slow pitch. Everybody’s going to swing at that one. I bet by the time I finish this sentence and hit submit, somebody else will have taken a poke at it. I have a good friend (Former cop) who has a several pistols, rifles and at least one M16-A2 (I believe that’s the model.) And just last year, my cousin-in-law (not a cop, and not what I’d call very bright), with two infants, showed me his arsenal of at least 3 assault rifles he keeps in his cellar, relatively accessible (though the magazines aren’t loaded). I think M16s as well. They were all quite impressive, and according to them, not all that hard to obtain. So, I know of at least two people in my close circle of friends/family with machine guns, and we all live in quiet, peaceful suburbia. Really, gun control isn’t a hotspot for me. I can see both sides, yet, if the bombastic psychopaths of the world are gonna kill, they’re gonna find a way… Bombastically. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/533 "2012-12-17T05:11:15Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > For purposes of anonymity I used a random base number. Then I calculated the percentage of increase electronically to ensure accuracy and the resulting percentage of increase is accurate even if the numbers used to illustrate it are not. So what city is it? I find your claim highly dubious, especially now that you’ve admitted making up the base numbers. You now say the 2011 figure is between 50 and 150. Well, it’s certainly not 150, or anything close to it, because, again, there is no city in America that fits that description. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/534 "2012-12-17T05:19:08Z")
Dear America, How much is the monthly asking salary of a security guard? Here in the Philippines, nearly all private schools have gun-toting guards and a fair number patrol the state-run colleges. Could these attacks be foiled, or even deterred, with greater guard visibility? ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/535 "2012-12-17T05:27:54Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > So what city is it? I find your claim highly dubious, especially now that you’ve admitted making up the base numbers. > > You now say the 2011 figure is between 50 and 150. Well, it’s certainly not 150, or anything close to it, because, again, there is no city in America that fits that description. Well, it’s not just the numbers that he made up, but also the killings. The 50 to 150 didn’t necessarily get killed, or even shot, but they got _scared_. Which is basically the same thing, as any reasonable person would admit. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/536 "2012-12-17T05:38:29Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > A pity. > > You cast judgement when you could practice understanding and you spew ignorance when you could offer perspective. > > You’re hardly the only one on this message board who grew up during the 50s/60s, and I’ve never seen anyone guild it the way you do. Pining for an unstable, _Leave It To Beaver_ society so horribly, and you think we’re the hand wringers with our heads in the sand? You’re tilting at windmills so myopically you can’t see where the real enemies are. > > Your post is so full of righteous bullshit, I could barely read it without pinching my nose. You see the state of affairs how you want to see them, so you can preach about the wholesome days of the 50s where every good boy and girl said “yessir” and “yes ma’am” and we all mindlessly repeated grace at the dinner table for the umpteenth fucking time, always dressed up in their sunday best to go to town, and never questioned authority or disrespected your elders. > > As if that represented the whole of America at the time. All that’s happened was the counter culture of the 60s pulled your curtain back and revealed the smoke and mirrors for what it was. Of course everybody busted out the sex, drugs and rock and roll. > > And now you think this is the nail in America’s Apple Pie coffin, but it’s not. How far back to you want to keep pointing fingers, and how far in the future do you want to keep predicting armageddon to keep your comfy spot on Mt. Self Righteous? > > Because there, you’re the King. It’s good to be the King. So long as you’re okay, everything’s okay. _The only way to not be okay, is by stepping too far and slidding down the slippery slope of your mountain… and when you hit rock bottom, don’t say I didn’t tell you so!_ I don’t know if you’ve noticed but the only people who invoke _Leave It To Beaver_ in these conversations are people on your side. You’re the one doing all the talking about apple pie and “yes, ma’am” and saying grace at the table. I’m talking about a country that had schools where kids actually got educated, even in segregated minority areas. I’m talking about a country where most kids were raised with a father in the house. I’m talking about a country that wasn’t plagued with an underclass of millions raised without parental guidance or proper values, uneducated and bound for lives of crime and living off the dole. I’m talking about a country that could pay its bills and keep its promises. I’m talking about a country where drugs and gangs and criminality wasn’t rampant in every school and every neighborhood. Etc., etc., et-fucking-cetera, and then you come in here whining about privilege and wanting to handwave away responsibility for all the damage you’ve done as mere nostalgia for Leave It To Fucking Beaver and people saying ma’am? How many people do you think have died in this country because of the drugs that have flourished since the days of “yes, sir” and “no, ma’am” and Leave It To Beaver? Or the criminality resulting from kids growing up in fatherless families and drawn into thug life by the streets and popular culture? How many people killed in drive-by shootings or for stupid shit like their shoes or rims? How many young girls raped and then killed or sold into human trafficking? And how much anguish has been caused the families and loved ones of all those people? Add it all up and you’ll get millions of lives lost and ruined in the fifty years since you decided 1950s/60s society and its mores was bullshit, But you never give those people a single thought when you’re basking in the warm glow that comes from knowing that the Leave It To Beaver way of life with all its civility and propriety is dead and buried, do you? And further, I’d go so far as to wager you don’t care about 'em even now. All I can say is that, for minorities and the underprivileged, with friends like you who needs enemies? Black kids in the 50’s and 60’s got much better educations than they do today. Hell, _everybody_ got better educations than they do today. They weren’t being victimized by drugs and drug dealers and gang activity and drive-by shootings like they are now, nor were they being lured into that kind of lifestyle by a street life and popular culture that glamorized it. Their illegitimacy rate was nothing like it is now, and the adults weren’t burdened financially and emotionally, watching their children having children by absent fathers who then disappear and leave those children to grow up disadvantaged and uneducated and virtually guaranteed to live a life of crime and/or financial deprivation. I’ll guaran-damn-tee you it was easier and far less stressful to try to safely and properly raise a child to adulthood in most black communities in the 50s and 60s than it is now. This country is in the crapper. Everyone knows it and everyone knows when it started. But by all means keep sticking your head in the sand and telling yourself that things are so much better now because people don’t say “yes, sir” and “no, ma’am” and they don’t live like people in a 1950’s sitcom that wasn’t about real life anyway, and then continue to watch as things just get worse and worse and worse, because as long as we keep going down the path we’re on now, there’s no other choice. And the really troubling part is, it’s only now just getting started. Just wait until the current crop of young kids and babies get through growing up in this environment, and things are really gonna get bad. Soon most of the populace won’t be able to hold down a job and there won’t be enough tax money coming in to keep them afloat, let alone to imprison the ones that get caught, and they’ll be having more babies they can’t support who’ll also turn to lives of welfare and crime, and then won’t that be fun? And of course in the meantime we’ll continue to crank out disaffected youth, alienated from their disfunctional society and taunted and bullied by undisciplined young dickweeds raised on a steady diet of obnoxious TV shows and internet assholism, and people like you will still be posting to internet message boards wondering why all of a sudden we have so many school shootings. But enough of that. You have a good night now, y’hear? My computer wants me to come play a game of chess and one of these days I’m gonna beat the damn thing. Maybe tonight will be the night. Ta! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/537 "2012-12-17T05:58:55Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > So what city is it? I find your claim highly dubious, especially now that you’ve admitted making up the base numbers. > > You now say the 2011 figure is between 50 and 150. Well, it’s certainly not 150, or anything close to it, because, again, there is no city in America that fits that description. You can find it dubious all you want. I’ve always made it a practice to keep personal information about myself and where I live confidential for the very good reason that there are too many dishonest, immature, and flat-out chickenshit people on this board who can’t be trusted not to use anything personal as ammunition for insults and attempted dismissal of my arguments when they have nothing of substance to work with. That’s why I turned down **Arnold Winklereid** when he asked for a photo for the gallery, and it’s why I don’t have any personal information in my profile. My suspicions in this regard were confirmed when after several years I unthinkingly answered a poster’s innocent question about my age, whereupon other posters picked up on it and it’s been used ever since to insult me and dismiss my arguments by people too immature and cowardly to meet them head-on. I knew at the time I posted the figures that some asshole (not that you are, necessarily, but I knew someone would and because I knew he’d instantly start trying to find out if I was lying I pegged his imaginary ass as an asshole :D) was going to try to dig around and test me on them and that eventually it would come down to this, and I knew, knowing as I do the character of many of this board’s posters, that once I stated I had used inaccurate numbers but an accurate percentage, that certain people would try to use that to dismiss my entire claim. I could have been dishonest and just ignored your entreaties, or I could have just fictated a more plausible number to begin with. But I had and continue to have no interest in being deceptive, and each of those avenues would have been. So, I’ve done my part. I’ve I know what the murder rate here is and I know that as of Dec. 1, it was a little of 60% higher than last year’s total. You and **Lamar** can believe it or not. Either way it has no bearing on the fact that it exists, and that the forces that have produced it exist. I have a long, voluble and contentious history on this board and I’ve yet to be proven to have lied about anything. I’m happy to stand on that history in support my claim. I’m afraid anyone who wants more than that is just gonna have to deal. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/538 "2012-12-17T06:07:43Z")
Missed the edit window and somehow screwed up the editing on that one line near the end, which should read: “So, I’ve done my part. I know what the murder rate is here, and I know that as of Dec. 1 it was a little over 60% higher than last year’s total.” ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/539 "2012-12-17T06:42:13Z")
SA: Whatever brought America to the cultural state I was born into in the 70’s are perceived sins of your generation. I’m just passing through. 1st, there’s 200+% more population in America than in the 50s. Technology has exploded since the space race, exponentially. Shit, knowledge in general vastly broadened since then. Perhaps scores are lower among kids in the ghetto, or overall; yet I’d wager that overall, kids now-a-days learn more, at an earlier age than 60 years ago. I just don’t understand your beef with how it all played out. If you had a Delorean, would you attempt the prevent the civil rights movement, if you could? The invention of the integrated circuit to keep computers, video games, and the internet from coming into being. Where and who exactly to pin the modern, more secular/vulgar culture on? How are you arriving at these conclusions? You say you accept that shit happens, and you take that in stride as your philosophy, but you don’t seem to accept that change and progress happen too. And you obviously have little faith, disdain even, in generations beyond your own. Or just the liberal side of that generation? Not everything is politics. Mostly, it’s human nature. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/540 "2012-12-17T07:05:47Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > Dear America, > > How much is the monthly asking salary of a security guard? Here in the Philippines, nearly all private schools have gun-toting guards and a fair number patrol the state-run colleges. > > Could these attacks be foiled, or even deterred, with greater guard visibility? Considering the fact that a large part of the Philippine GDP comes from money that ex-pat maids employed in third world countries send back home, we tend to pay people a bit more than you do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=28)