# 27 dead, 18 children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050 "2012-12-14T18:38:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/41 "2012-12-14T20:09:35Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Pretty soon the gun nuts will check in with their masturbatory fantasies about how more people packing heat would have gotten to the shooter before the cops could. And of course “NOW IS NOT THE TIME TO TALK ABOUT GUNS!” Jesus titty-fucking Christ. How many people have to die for your fucking “right” to a steel phallus? The only masturbation I see so far are gun control advocates rushing in to gleefully shout “I told you so!” over the bodies of dead elementary school kids. In another thread in GD recently, several people claimed gun rights advocates rushed in first after incidents like these. I said, of course, that’s ridiculous - after all, we’re responding to emotional outcries from others, and it makes no sense that the replies come first. Witness these threads, where no gun rights advocate shows up anytime soon, and there’s a big circle jerk over mocking our (not yet existing) response. Incidentally, I do think the fact that you all love this media coverage so, you love the recreational outrage, you love absorbing the tragedy - you’re the reason why these things get covered so extensively, with reports coming in from every possible angle from days on end. Now when crazy people want to go out with a bang, they know they can be famous. They know they’ll be on the news cycle for weeks, and people like you gobbling it all up. I would go so far as to say that at least in some cases, your willingness to make a big media storm out of these things is more a precusor to someone doing it than the weapons used. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/42 "2012-12-14T20:12:16Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Nope. > > Giving a choice between a) keeping my guns and living with the current crime rate, and b) giving up my guns and a guarantee there will never be another murder in this country using a firearm, I would choose the former. I sometimes forget that people as sick and depraved as you exist. Thanks for the reminder, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/43 "2012-12-14T20:14:18Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Nope. > > Giving a choice between a) keeping my guns and living with the current crime rate, and b) giving up my guns and a guarantee there will never be another murder in this country using a firearm, I would choose the former. Serious question here, and I am not attacking gun ownership rights: What is YOUR proposal to keep firearms out of the hands of crack-pots? As you say, guns are not going away, so what can be done to prevent this sort of thing? What does the gun lobby think? Or, do you say we just accept this as part of being a free society? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/44 "2012-12-14T20:14:18Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Precisely. > > The only way to make a difference is an amendment. It’s time for an amendment to the constitution that limits gun ownership. I wish you anti-gun nuts would try that. It would fail miserably. But that won’t convince you would it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/45 "2012-12-14T20:14:48Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I sometimes forget that people as sick and depraved as you exist. Thanks for the reminder, I guess. At least it’s not masturbatory. Nor is saying 27 people shot at a school are “insignificant.” ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/46 "2012-12-14T20:16:14Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Nope. > > Giving a choice between a) keeping my guns and living with the current crime rate, and b) giving up my guns and a guarantee there will never be another murder in this country using a firearm, I would choose the former. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fool_in_the_Rain)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/47 "2012-12-14T20:17:39Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > 18 kids? That’s it? > > Children are murdered every day in “doctors” offices and nobody here goes on a rant. > > Why do some of you think some magic law is going to stop something like this? > The Brady Bill didn’t do it. the “assault weap:rolleyes:ns” ban didn’t do it. > Hell, the guy in Oregon stole his weapon. > > And why are you ranting about inanimate objects instead of the nutjobs who do this? A majority of times someone eventually comes out and says how the guy was talking goofy shit and such. Yet you’re more concerned about NRA members who legally buy their weapons, learn how to use them, follow regulations and such? > > SCOTUS has ruled on handguns, so,sorry to have to tell you, all guns are not going away anytime soon. A guy could take several 5 shot revolvers and commit the same kind of carnage. But the anti-rights crowd don’t understand that because they don’t understand anything about any guns or how they work. they also don’t understand that guns are not going to go away! > > 27 people out of 300+ million is insignificant. Hate to have to be the bearer of a horrible truth. Who is this directed at? Or is this just blanket finger pointing? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/48 "2012-12-14T20:19:49Z")
I’m really sorry for the loss of all those affected… …but (and I’m not trying to trivialize or dismiss the tragedy here) I don’t see how you can legislate away crazy. I’ve argued that about the post 911 airport security rules, and I feel the same principle applies here. Ban assault rifles. People buy rifles. Ban rifles. People buy handguns. Ban Handguns. People go read up a bit of easy chemistry, and start making explosives, or bathtub napalm, or whatever. See Anders Breivik, who’d made a few tons of fertilizer explosive prior to his killing spree. And again, I’m really sorry to anyone affected. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/49 "2012-12-14T20:20:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I wish you anti-gun nuts would try that. It would fail miserably. But that won’t convince you would it. You still here? Thought you were gonna stow away on the S.S. Butthurt to New Zealand. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/50 "2012-12-14T20:20:42Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > The only masturbation I see so far are gun control advocates rushing in to gleefully shout “I told you so!” over the bodies of dead elementary school kids. In another thread in GD recently, several people claimed gun rights advocates rushed in first after incidents like these. I said, of course, that’s ridiculous - after all, we’re responding to emotional outcries from others, and it makes no sense that the replies come first. Witness these threads, where no gun rights advocate shows up anytime soon, and there’s a big circle jerk over mocking our (not yet existing) response. > > Incidentally, I do think the fact that you all love this media coverage so, you love the recreational outrage, you love absorbing the tragedy - you’re the reason why these things get covered so extensively, with reports coming in from every possible angle from days on end. Now when crazy people want to go out with a bang, they know they can be famous. They know they’ll be on the news cycle for weeks, and people like you gobbling it all up. > > I would go so far as to say that at least in some cases, your willingness to make a big media storm out of these things is more a precusor to someone doing it than the weapons used. Yeah, I know my first reaction was not horror and devastation. I didn’t identify with the tragedy both as a parent and and someone familiar with that area. No, I had a huge boner thinking that I couldn’t wait to rub this in the faces of the douchebag fuck gun sodomists at the SDMB. I just can’t wait for the next big shooting so I can say I told you so all over again! And the one after that and the one after that. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/51 "2012-12-14T20:21:03Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Incidentally, I do think the fact that you all love this media coverage so, you love the recreational outrage, you love absorbing the tragedy - you’re the reason why these things get covered so extensively, with reports coming in from every possible angle from days on end. Now when crazy people want to go out with a bang, they know they can be famous. They know they’ll be on the news cycle for weeks, and people like you gobbling it all up. Right. It couldn’t possibly be that it gets covered extensively because it’s a massive tragedy. Just like the 9/11 coverage - the ghouls who watched the news fed it. It wasn’t a “real” story otherwise. You’re a sad motherfucker if you believe this bullshit. Maybe going out and blowing some shit up will make you feel better. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/52 "2012-12-14T20:21:35Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Giving a choice between a) keeping my guns and living with the current crime rate, and b) giving up my guns and a guarantee there will never be another murder in this country using a firearm, I would choose the former. Just to recap. If some deity offered you the deal that if you were to hand in your guns, then there’d never be another atrocity in a primary school…you would say no? ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/53 "2012-12-14T20:21:58Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Sure, but that’s because you’re a piece of shit human being. [I’m not picking on you, I picked your response at random.] There are tons of shitbags out there. And it’s fun to argue with people on the internet. But this is what now? The fourth? fifth? sixth? twentieth? incident of a mass shooting this year? WE DON’T HAVE TIME TO WASTE WITH RETARDS. We have the serious work of building the political will that acknowledges that the Second Amendment has outlived its usefulness. The Second Amendment is not a bulwark against government repression: there’s no ragtag militia that is going to overwhelm the U.S. military. What the Second Amendment is now is lethally diasatrous policy. But! A silver lining: We can change that. We can tell our politicians that we will no longer stand by idly while they avoid the hard work of getting this terrible amendment off the books because they’re worried it will make getting re-elected more difficult. And if they don’t have a taste for that hard work, we will elect someone else who does. But mercy, this is not going to happen if we allow ourselves to be distracted by internet nincompoops. I would love to see Crafter Man’s post appear on every news channel. This is what the pro-Second Amendment side believes. This is why they need to be defeated. This is why it is time to do something serious about a serious problem. The pro-Second Amendment side loves it when we indulge them, because it means less time to do the work that will get the Second Amendment repealed. It is an unforced error. Each and every person who was horrified by today’s crime needs to make it crystal clear to his/her representatives, in no uncertain terms, that will we no longer stand for shirking the dire need to change this. That this is not just idle political philosophizing, but that we will organize pressure groups for this purpose. Those of us who want the Second Amendment gone need to get off of the internet and into our representatives’ offices and into the public eye. Let Crafter Man and Senor Beef be the ones wasting their time making excuses on the internet. Don’t let them trick you in neglecting the important work. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/54 "2012-12-14T20:22:28Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > The only masturbation I see so far are gun control advocates rushing in to gleefully shout “I told you so!” over the bodies of dead elementary school kids. No, we’re saying, GODDAMN IT, WHY DID THOSE KIDS HAVE TO DIE?? Just to preserve your damned “rights?” If my kid had been among those dead today, it would have felt like the end of the fucking world. And I’m sure that, for a few dozen parents in Connecticut, that’s exactly how it feels right now. And the fright that possessed every other parent of a child in that school, while they had no idea whether their kid was among the dead or the living, will stay with every one of them for the rest of their lives. So fuck you and fuck this nonsense. These are real children, dead for no good reason. Maybe this or that gun law wouldn’t have saved these particular kids. But we all know there are perfectly reasonable laws that would reduce the carnage, reduce the number of people who will live their lives without a loved one struck down by gunfire. Just like we have put a lot of effort over the decades into reducing deaths from everything from car crashes to swimming pools to unsafe kids’ toys, we can put some effort into reducing deaths from guns. But fucking gunnies like you won’t have any of it. And so more kids must bleed. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/55 "2012-12-14T20:24:28Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > Why? Legal gun ownership may be a net good ignoring all of the issues with rights/freedom/sporting uses/etc/etc. Even people who are looking to prove how useless guns are in self defense have come up with the number 250,000 defensive gun uses per year. Now clearly all of those didn’t prevent a murder, but you ignore the very real possibility that the presence of a gun prevented a murder, a rape, a home invasion. But every time this happens, sometimes it isn’t reported to the police, and almost never do you actually see a story in the media that reports positive gun use by the good guys. You never have a big story like this to latch onto, so you never see the quiet background noise where guns in the hands of the good guys did good. I say this is in every thread, but could someone come up with the number of deaths average per year from spree shooters? I think we came up with 2 dozen or so last time. The fact that you are all so very outraged by something that is utterly miniscule in terms of cause of death means that you aren’t actually looking at the world with a level head and a reasoned perspective, trying to figure out what policy changes would be most effective. No, it shows that you are all just emotionally reacting to the narratives that the media throws in front of you, with no perspective at all on what it means towards the greater picture. Taking guns out of the equation, if 20 kids were to die today, seperately, by getting the hands on dangerous household chemicals and poisoning yourself, it wouldn’t strike you at all. But if 20 were killed by an evil lunchlady who poisoned your food, you’d be gobbling up the tragedy for days, there’d be media coverage for weeks. Are the latter 20 kids more important? Their deaths more tragic? Or do you just latch onto whatever the media decides makes a simple, emotional story rather than taking the wider view? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/56 "2012-12-14T20:26:49Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > > [@Crafter\_man](#): > > > > Nope. > > > > Giving a choice between a) keeping my guns and living with the current crime rate, and b) giving up my guns and a guarantee there will never be another murder in this country using a firearm, I would choose the former. > > Why? For an inkling as to why, I’ll direct you to [my response](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15794075&postcount=2) in the “why would anyone drive on snow and ice while talking on their cell phone” thread. I believe it applies equally here. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/57 "2012-12-14T20:26:55Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I sometimes forget that people as sick and depraved as you exist. Thanks for the reminder, I guess. Try again. I’m a normal, educated, rational, law-abiding, well-adjusted adult. With one child in elementary school and two in high school. I also understand freedom is not free, and that I must tolerate a certain amount of shit in society in exchange for preserving my freedoms & liberties. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/58 "2012-12-14T20:30:17Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Right. It couldn’t possibly be that it gets covered extensively because it’s a massive tragedy. Just like the 9/11 coverage - the ghouls who watched the news fed it. It wasn’t a “real” story otherwise. You’re a sad motherfucker if you believe this bullshit. Maybe going out and blowing some shit up will make you feel better. Yes, actually, 9/11 works for me as an analogy. People reacted to it in a completely retarded way, that shows that they’re all a bunch of recreational victims. People from all over the country, who weren’t personally affected at all, were talking about how the event ruined their lives. Some people said they’d never fly again. THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING, etc. And what’d we get out of it? Months of weepy coverage. We all got to be part of the fun victim club. We got the Patriot Act. We got a ridiculous war in Iraq. We got new TSA security procedures. We gave a big victory to the terrorists, because after all, their reason to do this was our emotional reaction to it. Do you think the greatest generation spent years weeping and reflecting what victims they were after Pearl Harbor? By making it into such a big deal, by making it the worst thing ever THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING, we gave the terrorists the reaction they were after. So yes, basically, I feel roughly the same about 9/11 and stuff like this. Shit happens. Don’t get fixated on how it makes you a victim. Move past it. Don’t overreact to it. Don’t pass the patriot act. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/59 "2012-12-14T20:33:14Z")
[QUOTE=Crafter Man] Try again. I’m a normal, educated, rational, law-abiding, well-adjusted adult. With one child in elementary school and two in high school. I also understand freedom is not free, and that I must tolerate a certain amount of shit in society in exchange for preserving my freedoms & liberties. [/Quote] I wouldn’t care if your children died so I could continue to enjoy my hobbies either. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/60 "2012-12-14T20:33:36Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > I must tolerate a certain amount of shit in society in exchange for preserving my freedoms & liberties. I find great amusement in your belief that somehow, by owning guns, you are defending freedom & liberty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=4)