# 27 dead, 18 children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050 "2012-12-14T18:38:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/581 "2012-12-17T19:59:28Z")
> [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](#): > > Maybe if we can bring the two issues together - treatment and/or help for the mentally ill, and overly strict gun regulations to keep guns in the law-abiding hands. It’s a hope and a prayer, I understand, with the illegal gun market, and shady gun dealers - the road is long and difficult. What? A two pronged approach? Poppycock! It’ll never work. :rolleyes: Actually I like where you are going. Let’s crack down on hand guns and psychological disorders. Why can’t we make hand gun licensing and purchase as, or nearly as, strict as the requirements for full auto firearms? With strict production limits as well? Provided some form of limited exception for certain professions and handicapped hunters. Why can’t we discuss broader restrictions on semi-automatic weapons? Sport shooters can and will work within and around those restrictions. Hunters would hardly be inconvenienced. Police and other professions would adapt. Why can’t we discuss reducing real or implied restrictions on direct reporting of psychological issues to law enforcement? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/582 "2012-12-17T20:03:39Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You can find it dubious all you want. I’ve always made it a practice to keep personal information about myself Having done more research, I think it safe to conclude your claim is not true. I cannot find any city in America with 50 or more murders in 2011 is on track for a 60% increase in 2012. Your claim appears to be false. Why would you say something like that? ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/583 "2012-12-17T20:21:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because in America, guns are more important than everything else. Neither our civil rights, our property rights or our lives are as important as that apex of all that exists: the gun. I would like to visit this America you live in. It sounds like a nice place. > [@Miller](#): > > [Moderating] > In the heat of the emotions stirred up by this terrible tragedy, please try to remember what’s _really_ important here: > > You can’t say the f-word at other posters on the SDMB. > > No warnings issued. > [/Moderating] We can’t call each other fruitloops anymore? This is some bullshit. Ever since that day this place has gone down the shitter. ---
**Author:** ![Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fool_in_the_Rain)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/584 "2012-12-17T20:21:47Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > What? A two pronged approach? Poppycock! It’ll never work. :rolleyes: > > Actually I like where you are going. Let’s crack down on hand guns and psychological disorders. > > Why can’t we make hand gun licensing and purchase as, or nearly as, strict as the requirements for full auto firearms? With strict production limits as well? Provided some form of limited exception for certain professions and handicapped hunters. > > Why can’t we discuss broader restrictions on semi-automatic weapons? Sport shooters can and will work within and around those restrictions. Hunters would hardly be inconvenienced. Police and other professions would adapt. > > Why can’t we discuss reducing real or implied restrictions on direct reporting of psychological issues to law enforcement? It seems to be the lethal combination of the mentally ill and guns in the majority of these attacks. We need to figure out a way to keep these two apart somehow, and that is the difficulty, without inhibiting the legal rights of the law-abiding, but at the same time protecting and helping the sick. I just don’t know how to get there…the fact that there is a real healthy discussion here is a good start though. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/585 "2012-12-17T20:56:06Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You certainly can…if they’re locked up and out of reach and kids can’t get to them. There are millions of such guns being kept around children every day. Just like drain cleaners and rat poisons and a million other things that can be harmful to children if they aren’t handled responsibly. > > It’s been my experience that people who get cranked up over kids getting accidentally shot by household guns who don’t also get similarly cranked up by kids getting killed or injured by poisons and drain cleaners, etc., are most often anti-gun to begin with and the kid aspect is just another arrow in their quiver. If you were really all that outraged over children being needlessly harmed, you’d be just as cranked up about outlawing drain cleaners, rat poison, automobiles, and all the other things that accidentally kill children. Oh, we’ve never done anything to protect kids from these things. Except that all dangerous items have childproof caps now, and many if not all states have car seat laws. And every new parent hears all about child proofing your house with cabinet latches and outlet guards, and to put dangerous chemicals up high where kids can’t get at them. How about child-proofing guns? How about mandatory trigger guards? Guns locked in cabinets are safer, but won’t do that much good when the jack booted thugs smash down your door, which the gun nut types tell us is always about to happen. So the paranoids will never do it. > [@](#): > > Generally I’ve found as well that kids are much safer in the presence of gun-toting mass child killers when the responsible adults nearby are unarmed. Makes perfect sense to me. Let’s just hope that the absence of people like me doesn’t some day result in more kids being killed than would have been had we been there. If the probability that one of the tons of people carrying in schools will lose it and start shooting is higher than someone outside deciding to invade, then it is. How do you determine who is a responsible adult and who isn’t, anyway? Remember, if the killer’s mother wasn’t loaded with guns, for her own protection, this probably would not have happened. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/586 "2012-12-17T21:12:04Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Having done more research, I think it safe to conclude your claim is not true. I cannot find any city in America with 50 or more murders in 2011 is on track for a 60% increase in 2012. Your claim appears to be false. Why would you say something like that? I say it because it’s true. The only reasonable conclusion to be drawn is that your research methods are faulty, and having missed where you are off track, you mistakenly assume I’m lying. As I told you before, I prefer to keep details such as the part of the country where I live, etc., under the radar because there are just too many cheap shot artists on this board who will use it for obfuscatory and derailment purposes, being as they are bereft of substantive argument. However, also being conservative and therefore aware of the life-enhancing qualities of evil lucre, I am not a fanatic about it and would be happy to prove the truth of my claims for sufficient remuneration. I have tried this tactic before when people have challenged my veracity and have so far come a cropper. So, how about you, hot shot? Willing to put your money where your mouth is? How much would you be willing to pay for me to prove that my city meets the criteria of having over 50 murders and a murder rate for 2012 that is at least 60% higher than the total number of murders that occurred here in 2011? Don’t be a piker! It’ll have to be enough to make worthwhile my having to contend with endless insults about my home state and city and the people in it and yada yada yada for years to come. I’m thinking even $5,000 might be too modest a figure, but then I’m in a generous mood today. Cough up $5,000 (to be placed in an escrow account with an attorney of my selection in your locality, to be paid to me upon my satisfaction of the terms of our agreement, with said attorney’s fee to be paid by you of course) and I’ll be happy to prove to you that my claim about the 60% increase in our murder rate over last year’s murder rate is indeed quite factual and true. So? How’s about it, chum(p)? Put up or shut up. Ball’s in your court. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/587 "2012-12-17T21:19:40Z")
Or you could stop being a pussy and just cite your data. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/588 "2012-12-17T21:21:39Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [Moderating] > In the heat of the emotions stirred up by this terrible tragedy, please try to remember what’s _really_ important here: > > You can’t say the f-word at other posters on the SDMB. > > No warnings issued. > [/Moderating] My apologies. I try to keep my language at least somewhat restrained, but I blew it on that occasion. Thanks for keeping us all on track. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/589 "2012-12-17T21:25:18Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I say it because it’s true. The only reasonable conclusion to be drawn is that your research methods are faulty, and having missed where you are off track, you mistakenly assume I’m lying. > > As I told you before, I prefer to keep details such as the part of the country where I live, etc., under the radar because there are just too many cheap shot artists on this board who will use it for obfuscatory and derailment purposes, being as they are bereft of substantive argument. > > However, also being conservative and therefore aware of the life-enhancing qualities of evil lucre, I am not a fanatic about it and would be happy to prove the truth of my claims for sufficient remuneration. I have tried this tactic before when people have challenged my veracity and have so far come a cropper. So, how about you, hot shot? Willing to put your money where your mouth is? How much would you be willing to pay for me to prove that my city meets the criteria of having over 50 murders and a murder rate for 2012 that is at least 60% higher than the total number of murders that occurred here in 2011? > > Don’t be a piker! It’ll have to be enough to make worthwhile my having to contend with endless insults about my home state and city and the people in it and yada yada yada for years to come. I’m thinking even $5,000 might be too modest a figure, but then I’m in a generous mood today. Cough up $5,000 (to be placed in an escrow account with an attorney of my selection in your locality, to be paid to me upon my satisfaction of the terms of our agreement, with said attorney’s fee to be paid by you of course) and I’ll be happy to prove to you that my claim about the 60% increase in our murder rate over last year’s murder rate is indeed quite factual and true. > > So? How’s about it, chum(p)? Put up or shut up. Ball’s in your court. I’m thinking that any moderator on this board could figure out exactly where you live, just by looking up your IP. Unless you’re using a proxy of course 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/590 "2012-12-17T21:30:24Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Remember, if the killer’s mother wasn’t loaded with guns, for her own protection, this probably would not have happened. And had all the other people who had guns for their own protection not had them, they would not have been able to protect themselves from their intruders and therefore would have fallen victim to rape, robbery, torture, abduction and murder, just like those who’ve found themselves so confronted and without benefit of a gun. Yours truly was even able at one point in his life to scare off an intruder in his house thanks to the fact that he had a firearm available. I was living in an old house that was an upstairs/downstairs duplex and the guy kept roaming the house apparently looking for a way to get upstairs where a young woman was sleeping, her husband being out of town that night. The guy came into my bedroom several times and looked over the bed but then turned and went out and began roaming the house again. The police said a guy had been breaking into young womens’ apartments in the area, waking them up and threatening to kill them, then stealing their underwear and running off, and they suspected the guy in my house was him. Fortunately I had my trusty Smith & Wesson .38 with copper jacketed hollow point bullets and in the process of going for it, he heard me and bolted for the front door, whereupon he successfully made his escape. Turned out he wasn’t the guy they were looking for, but they still thought he was after the girl upstairs. Anyway, the point being, many more people would have fallen victim to a lot of horrible, horrible fates had they not had guns available to protect themselves with. But experience has shown that people like you don’t care about the consequences of the knee-jerk goals you espouse, or the victims of them, so I don’t expect that any of this will change your mind. But for the occasional drive-by lurker it may prove informative. At least that’s the hope. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/591 "2012-12-17T21:43:15Z")
> [@Mixolydian](#): > > I understand and agree that antidepressants have saved lives and continue to help a great many folks, and yes, it’s entirely feasible that in more than a few of the SSRI Stories, “you should have seen them before they were medicated”. At the same time, it’s apparent to me that rapid drops in seratonin levels, whether due to patients ignoring their physicians and not taking their meds, or being weaned off too quickly while switching meds, combinations with other drugs, etc., has not been studied enough, or results have been hidden enough that the public outcry isn’t where it should be. We want the quick fix, we don’t want to lock our kids up in institutions, and we want everyone to be “normal”. > > . That isn’t such a far out theory. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/592 "2012-12-17T21:54:12Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And had all the other people who had guns for their own protection not had them, they would not have been able to protect themselves from their intruders and therefore would have fallen victim to rape, robbery, torture, abduction and murder, just like those who’ve found themselves so confronted and without benefit of a gun. > > Yours truly was even able at one point in his life to scare off an intruder in his house thanks to the fact that he had a firearm available. I was living in an old house that was an upstairs/downstairs duplex and the guy kept roaming the house apparently looking for a way to get upstairs where a young woman was sleeping, her husband being out of town that night. The guy came into my bedroom several times and looked over the bed but then turned and went out and began roaming the house again. > > The police said a guy had been breaking into young womens’ apartments in the area, waking them up and threatening to kill them, then stealing their underwear and running off, and they suspected the guy in my house was him. Fortunately I had my trusty Smith & Wesson .38 with copper jacketed hollow point bullets and in the process of going for it, he heard me and bolted for the front door, whereupon he successfully made his escape. Turned out he wasn’t the guy they were looking for, but they still thought he was after the girl upstairs. > > Anyway, the point being, many more people would have fallen victim to a lot of horrible, horrible fates had they not had guns available to protect themselves with. But experience has shown that people like you don’t care about the consequences of the knee-jerk goals you espouse, or the victims of them, so I don’t expect that any of this will change your mind. But for the occasional drive-by lurker it may prove informative. At least that’s the hope. Your bizarre fantasies are delusional. We are teeming with guns. How many massive shootings have thus far been prevented by such firearms? You’re just fucking sad and stupid. It terrifies me that some people in power over us share your absurd beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/593 "2012-12-17T22:06:06Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > That isn’t such a far out theory. Yes, it is. You know what else has increased over the past decades, as shootings have increased? Personal computer usage. The number of Starbucks. The number of Apple products released. Are those also the cause of shootings? Correlation does not equal causation. ESPECIALLY since we have no evidence that there were psychiatric medications involved in this shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/594 "2012-12-17T22:08:28Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The police said a guy had been breaking into young womens’ apartments in the area, waking them up and threatening to kill them, then stealing their underwear and running off, and they suspected the guy in my house was him. Fortunately I had my trusty Smith & Wesson .38 with copper jacketed hollow point bullets and in the process of going for it, he heard me and bolted for the front door, whereupon he successfully made his escape. Turned out he wasn’t the guy they were looking for, but they still thought he was after the girl upstairs. So what you are saying is that your trusty Smith & Wesson .38 with copper jacketed hollow point bullets was totally uncessary-the intruder left when he heard you moving about. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/595 "2012-12-17T22:12:08Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > I’m thinking that any moderator on this board could figure out exactly where you live, just by looking up your IP. Unless you’re using a proxy of course 😉 Of course. 😉 > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Your bizarre fantasies are delusional. We are teeming with guns. How many massive shootings have thus far been prevented by such firearms? Far fewer than would have been had responsible people on site had firearms themselves, that’s for sure. In other words, how many mass shootings have occurred where people other than the killers had weapons at all? I don’t think I’m the one having bizarre thought processes here, dear. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > So what you are saying is that your trusty Smith & Wesson .38 with copper jacketed hollow point bullets was totally uncessary-the intruder left when he heard you moving about. He heard me unsnap the holster. Which I wouldn’t have done had I not had the gun. Nor would I likely have been about to confront him as was the plan once I had gun in hand. He’d probably have been free to eventually leave and find his way upstairs while I continued to lie in bed hoping he’d take whatever he wanted and just go. The gun won the [del]day[/del] night. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/596 "2012-12-17T22:12:32Z")
Maybe all those things also combine to trigger certain behaviors which precipitate homicidal acts? Maybe, I don’t know, I just said it wasn’t far out. It does clearly say in anti-depressant side effect warnings that it may cause depression and suicidal behavior (and in this case it was murder/suicide, but as you pointed out we don’t know if he was ever on them) > [@](#): > > There is a danger that, in some people, antidepressant treatment will cause an increase, rather than a decrease, in depression—and with it, an increased risk of suicide. While this is particularly true of children and young adults on antidepressant medication, anyone taking antidepressants should be closely watched for suicidal thoughts and behaviors. The suicide risk is particularly great during the first one to two months of antidepressant treatment. > **[Antidepressants: Understanding Depression Medication](https://www.helpguide.org/mental-health/depression/antidepressant-medication)** > > Learn about the different types of antidepressants, how they work, their effectiveness, side effects, and how to safely use them. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/597 "2012-12-17T22:13:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So what you are saying is that your trusty Smith & Wesson .38 with copper jacketed hollow point bullets was totally uncessary-the intruder left when he heard you moving about. My thought exactly, at first. Then it occurred to me that Skeevy is a lying quasi-pedo and is probably lying about the whole thing anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/598 "2012-12-17T22:13:28Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > And here’s some information about why she might not be a good source of information: > > [Want the Truth Behind “I Am Adam Lanza’s Mother”? Read her blog. | Sarah Kendzior](http://sarahkendzior.com/2012/12/16/want-the-truth-behind-i-am-adam-lanzas-mother-read-her-blog/) A bunch of out-of-context quotes do not a rebuttal make. Did you even read the comments at that link? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/599 "2012-12-17T22:18:27Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > My thought exactly, at first. Then it occurred to me that Skeevy is a lying quasi-pedo and is probably lying about the whole thing anyway. One thing about [del]Skeevy[/del] **Starvey** is that he runs rings around your silly ass in every argument we have, even when it comes to explaining the meaning of laws pertaining to your own profession. Hah! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/600 "2012-12-17T22:19:44Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Your bizarre fantasies are delusional. We are teeming with guns. How many massive shootings have thus far been prevented by such firearms? > > You’re just fucking sad and stupid. It terrifies me that some people in power over us share your absurd beliefs. [Here are some incidents](http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/). Some stopped by unarmed civilians who had the balls to tackle a gunman, others were armed and put a stop to the proceedings. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=31)