# 27 dead, 18 children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050 "2012-12-14T18:38:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/621 "2012-12-18T02:02:05Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Hoo, boy. Blog article I ran across blaming the shooting on social liberalism: > > ["A gunshot is a far kinder form of death than what an abortion is.](http://www.redstate.com/xangel/2012/12/16/newtown-through-the-prism-of-social-conservatism/) so if, as that cite claims, 4000 babies are aborted a day, and lets say none of those babies were to be aborted but lived, then that would be about 1.5 million unwanted children born in the US each year. How is that better than abortion? I know that is a side issue, but the cite brought it up. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/622 "2012-12-18T02:22:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Does homicide in the home include the death of a burglar who dies in the home he’s robbing? Seeing how the study was about finding out if people who died violently in their homes were more or less likely to also keep firearms in their homes, no. Not unless the burglar was robbing his own place. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/623 "2012-12-18T04:51:16Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I was working an additional part-time job that summer… I know that there is no way for you to provide any proof to back this story up. And, the world is a big place with lots of people in it, and strange things happen. But, I just don’t believe a damn word of this post. I mean, the guy coming into your room several times, you pretending to be asleep, the guy 6 inches from your face, you then _almost falling back asleep_, the guy in another part of the house hearing the holster snap, the mental hospital, the falling off the halftrack bit… I just have a hard time swallowing this. Now, sure, maybe it’s all true, and my cynicism is preventing me from appreciating a tale of real life suspense. If so, I apologize for calling your story into question. But I hope you can see why I might have a hard time accepting this at face value. (And I was right, I do regret engaging in this discussion.) ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/624 "2012-12-18T05:20:47Z")
Well, chum, I’ve been posting to this board for nigh on to ten years now, a long (and voluble, I might add) history, and I don’t think anyone here would tell you that I have much of a record of spinning fanciful, imaginative yarns like that. Plus I’ve told that story several times here before, the first time going back maybe eight or nine years ago. You could do a little searching if you like, and maybe compare notes to see if the details add up. Plus in that ten year history, and despite many accusations based upon little but political annoyance, not a soul around here has ever proven I’ve lied about anything and I’ve challenged most of them who’ve accused me of it to prove it, and they always met with teh fail. So there’s that. But all in all, I don’t worry too much about whether people believe me. I’ve always had the philosophy that the onus in on me to tell the truth, and after that it’s out of my hands and up to the recipient whether to believe it or not. So, believe it or don’t believe it. That’s up to you. But for the record, every word was true. Tell ya what though: cough up $5,000 and I’ll get you a copy of the police report. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/625 "2012-12-18T05:24:04Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > And welcome back folks to the **Starving Artist** show Seriously. God-fucking-damn to hell a piece of filth (SA) who cannot keep himself from hijacking a thread about TWENTY DEAD CHILDREN into a masturbatory fantasy about his conservatism. My friend, whose god-son was killed in the attack, thanks you, SA, for your pathetic jacking off over his corpse. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/626 "2012-12-18T06:05:47Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Tell ya what though: cough up $5,000 and I’ll get you a copy of the police report. 🙂 A donation has been made in your name to the Human Fund. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/627 "2012-12-18T06:14:44Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Seriously. God-fucking-damn to hell a piece of filth (SA) who cannot keep himself from hijacking a thread about TWENTY DEAD CHILDREN into a masturbatory fantasy about his conservatism. > > My friend, whose god-son was killed in the attack, thanks you, SA, for your pathetic jacking off over his corpse. Don’t blame conservatism for that kid (the shooter), you wacked out loon. The more disfunctional this society becomes the more this kind of stuff (and different and worse) is going to happen, and it ain’t conservatism that’s brought us here, believe me. When you have a society without values, where everyone pinballs around free to behave as they want because values are judgemental and the phrase “I don’t approve of what they’re doing but I don’t have the right to impose my values on somebody else” has become the touchstone society lives by, society gets fucked up and becomes disfunctional. And disfunctional societies produce people like him and like Harris and Klebold. And people who shoot and kill other people for their sneakers and the rims on their cars. Or because they got ripped off on a $20 drug deal. Or because they wanted $20 worth of dope and were such losers they couldn’t come up with the $20 it would take to buy it. So don’t spew your bile at me, you hysterical airheaded loonbat. My values didn’t get those kids killed. And furthermore - and this may come as a revelation or a shock, or hell, maybe both - nothing I’ve said in this thread has harmed a single one of those children. And guess what else? They’d all still be just as harmed if I’d never said a word! :eek: Yeah, who’d a thunk that, huh? So when come back, bring brain. Mmkay? Cause it’s obvious you sorely need it. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/628 "2012-12-18T07:20:20Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Don’t blame conservatism for that kid (the shooter), you wacked out loon. Actually, you can. Instead of liberal politics which would have resulted in bans on these sorts of weapons, you have conservative politics which allows the mentally disturbed to get guns because it’s a fundamental moral right to own a mechanical device that kills people at a distance. You also have policies targeted at reducing funding for healthcare and especially mental health, and a “tough on crime” policy which treats the mentally disabled as criminals, doesn’t treat them, and returns them to the streets just as disturbed as before. Instead of, say, solutions for treatable conditions. Deny funding for medicine which would cost a few hundred dollars, toss a man in prison for 10 years at 10,000 times the cost. Real conservative ideas. There’s conservative “principles” at work all over the place. > [@](#): > > The more disfunctional this society becomes the more this kind of stuff (and different and worse) is going to happen, and it ain’t conservatism that’s brought us here, believe me. When you have a society without values, where everyone pinballs around free to behave as they want because values are judgemental and the phrase “I don’t approve of what they’re doing but I don’t have the right to impose my values on somebody else” has become the touchstone society lives by, society gets fucked up and becomes disfunctional. Conservative values like don’t divorce your husband even if he beats you or rapes you. Conservative values like anyone who has non-marital sex is a slut. Conservative values like forcing a young woman to carry a rapist’s baby because you know the body has ways of shutting that whole thing down if it’s a legitimate rape. Which isn’t just a slip of the tongue, it’s a fucking mantra of the right wing. How many republicans and conservatives in politics have uttered dumbass comments related to rape just this year alone? Just in the past few months? Conservative values like making sure the queers can’t visit their spouses in the hospital. Conservative values like I’ve got mine, jack, doesn’t matter if we’re in a crisis situation, let’s continue to make sure the richest among us pay artificially low tax rates, while cutting off the unemployed or the sick or those facing foreclosure. The only values demonstrated by conservatives are the ones that make sure established privileged white males enjoy a nice soft cushion to sit on and decades worth of tax giveaways while a country recovers from recession, two wars, hurricanes, high unemployment, and no access to basic healthcare for those who are unemployed. There’s also some lovely misogynistic and gay-hating values to toss on the pile. On the one hand, they value the lives of the unborn, really, the fertilized egg, so much that they’re willing to put into law that a woman must carry rape seed to term, against her will. She doesn’t even have the right to her own uterus. But a fully automatic weapon with loads of ammunition, to ensure no one within 1,000 feet has a chance at survival, that’s a fundamental human fucking right. > [@](#): > > And disfunctional societies produce people like him and like Harris and Klebold. News flash: the mentally ill have always existed. They just haven’t always had access to machine guns. > [@](#): > > And people who shoot and kill other people for their sneakers and the rims on their cars. What would you do about it? Guarantee some employment for these people? Guarantee minimum access to food or shelter? The only thing conservatives will guarantee for the poor is that they can get access to high quality weaponry so they can commit the crimes of desperation that happen when entire populations of people are systematically neglected by governments and businesses alike. That’s the only conservative value. Guns. We know how they consider marital fidelity and premarital chastity to be quite negotiable. Your values are laughable. Take this for example: > [@](#): > > But hey, with friends like you guys who needs enemies. Now thanks to you we’ve got a black community where the schools are the pits; kids are having kids right and left with the fathers rarely in evidence; drugs and gangs and street crime proliferate; and where every negative and self-defeating behavior that springs forth is promoted by you and defended against with charges of racism. I’d much rather be a black parent raising a child in most of the segregated black communities of the sixties, where the schools and daily life more closely mirrored that of white communities, than trying to raise one in the environment you’ve created today. Black community where schools are the pits. How could this have happened to a public school system? Could it be because conservatives feel public education is a waste of money, and want to cut the funding? Seems to be a bedrock principle of conservative values, cut funding, layoff teachers, increase class sizes, and scoff at the “librul elites” who try to get an ivy league education. How about black fathers in jail due to drug sentencing which disproportionately affects black people. You do realize white people do drugs too, but the kinds of drugs more common in the black community have tougher sentencing, even if they’re the same level of drug. Cocaine powder sentencing lower than crack cocaine. Crackdowns on harmless marijuana usage. And once you’ve got any sort of criminal record, even minor offenses, good luck getting employment in a bad market. Even if you don’t have a record, just resembling someone who might, from the perspective of a privileged white business owner, means you don’t get the job. Hilarious though how you fantasize about being black in segregated times where people turned fire hoses and dogs on the black folks. You’re just pining to be oppressed. Because after all, it wasn’t so bad. You remember those days. Why, they were just fine for you. What were all those gays and blacks and womens complaining about? You got yours, jack. Women didn’t want their uterus to be the sole property of their future husband, and any rapist who happens to inflict himself on her. They wanted contraception and morning after pills to protect themselves from unwanted pregnancy. They wanted to actually date people and have romances before committing to a lifelong marriage. They wanted the sweet air of freedom and that made things a bit harsh for the apathetic and complacent conservatives who actually had to work at their relationships, because women were no longer bound to just serve their husbands and raise kids whether they wanted more or not, fiscally bound to domestic servitude. These changes to our society were so damaging that it left old religious nutters pining for the good ole days where if a young lady got pregnant, she married the guy and raised a whole bunch of kids with him, while he beat her and cheated on her all he liked, and she couldn’t do a thing about it because no company would hire her to do anything except make coffee and suck the bosses’ cock. Those damned feminists went and ruined everything. All that sweet office pussy they could get due to threatening a woman’s job, and no laws against sexual harassment. They ruined all that easy cheatin’ pussy husbands could get without worry. They ruined the concept of ensuring a woman could do nothing but stay at home barefoot and gestate fetuses and nurse newborns. Damn those feminists. And those blacks wanting to be desegregated, and to be hired without discrimination, and to be given a chance to succeed and have a job in an affluent neighborhood, not a blacks-only ghetto where everyone was poor and jobless. How dare they want change. How dare they ask for taxpayers in wealthy neighborhoods to have to pay for public schools where their kids could go, and read at the same level as Johnny from the suburbs. And darn those days for not wanting to be beaten to death, sodomized by broom handles, and suffer shame and disgrace simply for existing. Darn those queers who wanted to have normal lives and get married, and hold down jobs without their gay-hating boss being able to fire them for being “queer”. Yes, the **good old days** , when taxes were actually a lot fucking higher than they were now, and racism, sexism, and crime existed on a level a lot fucking higher than it is now, since you could get away with beating up the darkies back then. The police might even join in. Who am I kidding, might? They did half the beatings themselves. A conservative wonderland. Where everyone but the privileged white male suffered. But it’s funny, he complained a lot less about paying his taxes back then. Something about patriotism and duty to the country. Almost made those conservatives redeemable. Almost. Now they shit themselves at the thought of Clinton-era taxation, which was still ridiculously affordable by comparison to historically much higher rates. Because that might interfere with that conservative value of making sure there’s two dozen cars in every CEO’s garage. They are aghast at the idea of keeping military-grade weaponry out of the hands of psychotic nutjobs. Because that might interfere with their sacred value of being able to collect exotic and dangerous weapons, even if a few dozen kids die every now and then. Yeah, conservative values have nothing to do with this or any other political situation we face. Oh wait, they have everything to do with it. And even when their insane policies like lowering taxes in a time of war blow up the debt, and deregulating the market causes the market to crash, and superbly wealthy speculators gamble with people’s money recklessly and bet against their own transactions, they’re regarded as somehow fiscally responsible. They’re fiscally responsible all right. Responsible for the fiscal disaster. And they’re also responsible for stopping the progress of society. On every step society has made, whether it be a bare minimum of socialized medical care, social security, the right to unionize, the right of women to vote, the right to vote without having to pay a tax, the right to not be terminated for being gay, the right for women to have control over their own bodies, the right of women to be able to gain independence equal to a man, every single time, conservatives that are privileged and enjoy the suffering of others have done everything they could to block the march of progress. Backward, neanderthal, reactionary, useless conservatives. When you’ve been on the wrong side of history literally every single time, you’d think you’d have learned to shut the hell up by now. Instead, the centuries-long string of failure in all categories, social justice, scientific progress, basic governance, fiscal policy, across the board failures, none of that impacts the conservative mind. Because the belief that conservative values have made society better is precisely that: an unproven belief. A religious viewpoint. Because you’ve got to be that disconnected from reality and that convinced that facts will never ever persuade you. Those old timey values must be preserved at all costs! Even when they cost the lives of children! Even if an underaged girl dies in childbirth! Even when a person who has become unemployed through no fault of his own tries to get a job and the money runs out, we must preserve the sacred tax cuts! Let the man starve! Let the wars continue without end! We must preserve the sacred value of never having an exit plan! Never setting a draw-down date! We must preserve the fiction of marriage being under attack from feminists and teh gay! It has absolutely nothing to do with infidelity, wife-beating, or being drunk constantly. No sir. The queers did it. Man, you can delude yourself into thinking conservatives have values, and at the same time, they aren’t responsible for anything that’s wrong with our society, or hasn’t held up real progress. You can. But don’t try to sell me that noise. Thankfully conservatives become older, less diverse, and end up needing the very medicare they wish to cut. And eventually they’ll be the ones begging the government to come help them. They’ll say things like “keep the government out of my medicare!” and “Get a brain, morans!” Because, after all, conservative values conveniently disappear whenever conservatives need something. Like spending or a tax cut. Or a divorce. Or an abortion of their own. All those values don’t mean a thing. Really, it’s just their way of saying I’ve got mine, screw you. That’s the only truly conservative value. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/629 "2012-12-18T07:43:14Z")
Gosh I hope I didn’t sound judgmental just now. I might have hurt somebody’s feeeeeeelings. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/630 "2012-12-18T08:19:33Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > Gosh I hope I didn’t sound judgmental just now. I might have hurt somebody’s feeeeeeelings. He probably didn’t read it yet. Talking about his imaginary .38 always sends him rushing off to the shower with a paper towel tube and a laminated copy of Boys’ Life. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/631 "2012-12-18T08:46:20Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I don’t think anyone here would tell you that I have much of a record of spinning fanciful, imaginative yarns Actually, I would think that lots of people (myself included) would advise him that you are completely full of shit, and prone to fabricating stories to support your morally repugnant views. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/632 "2012-12-18T12:31:47Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > Gosh I hope I didn’t sound judgmental just now. Who knows? I scrolled past it because it was way too long. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/633 "2012-12-18T15:34:12Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > He heard me unsnap the holster. Which I wouldn’t have done had I not had the gun. Nor would I likely have been about to confront him as was the plan once I had gun in hand. He’d probably have been free to eventually leave and find his way upstairs while I continued to lie in bed hoping he’d take whatever he wanted and just go. The gun won the [del]day[/del] night. 😉 You actually think that 1. The intruder heard the the sound of you unsnapping the holster and 2. He identified that sound as the unsnapping of a gun holster, and that’s what scared him off? OM_F_G-have you been been munching on **kanicbird’s** brownies? ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/634 "2012-12-18T15:38:08Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > I don’t know, but it includes the deaths of those that had the guns in the house. There is this caveat in the abstract. > [@](#): > > They were also at greater risk of dying from a firearm homicide, but risk varied by age and whether the person was living with others at the time of death. It seems common sense that having guns in the house would correlate to an increased risk of homicide. What doesn’t seem sensible (if I am reading the results correctly) is that if I am to have a firearm in the house, I am safest to have one handgun and keep it unlocked. :eek: [**Table 5**](http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929/T5.expansion.html) ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/635 "2012-12-18T15:39:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You actually think that > > 1. The intruder heard the the sound of you unsnapping the holster and > 2. He identified that sound as the unsnapping of a gun holster, and that’s what scared him off? > OM_F_G-have you been been munching on **kanicbird’s** brownies? Maybe the intruder though it was the sound of pants being unsnapped? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/636 "2012-12-18T17:05:42Z")
No explanation yet of what city it is that had (at least) 50 murders last year and is on track for a 60% increase in 2012. Funny thing is , I’ve looked at a hell of a lot of crime stats and still an’t find any city that matches that description. There just aren’t any incorporated cities (SA probably doesn’t know this but 50 is a lot of murders; it has to be a reasonably large city to have fifty murders) with that kind of jump in stats. It’s not like you can hide this sort of thing. Such a gigantic one-year leap in a city’s murder rate would be major news. For instance, the city of Chicago had a major jump in the murder rate in the first three months of the year, but it’s since slowed down to normal levels. But even a three month trend was _national_ news. Perhaps SA lives in Chicago (why he would be afraid to say he lives in Chicago, I could not understand) and hasn’t read the news since early April. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/637 "2012-12-18T17:10:02Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > If psychological profiling isn’t wholly effective, that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be pursued if it has a measurable impact. True. We can discuss how effective legislation based on profiling would be in this instance and what its impact would be on the totality of gun crime. Likewise with gun control. As far as I can tell, neither would be effective in isolation. In fact, while I support the notion of reducing income inequality, I don’t think income inequality is responsible for crime (I do think relative deprivation is a valid concept). The income distribution has increasingly skewed left for the past three decades, but crime rates have declined at the same time. What would have been effective in this case? Perhaps personal gun licences and secure storage enforcement, so that family members could not access guns. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/638 "2012-12-18T17:16:48Z")
Apparently the NRA and its allies [have been working overtime in recent years](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/14/us/felons-finding-it-easy-to-regain-gun-rights.html?_r=4&pagewanted=all&) to get gun rights restored to convicted felons, including those who were convicted and imprisoned for committing violent crimes. So I find the current round of “oh, if only libruls hadn’t prevented us from keeping the guns away from crazies” bit to be pretty disingenuous. Not to mention yet another demonstration of just which way the slope has been slippering, if **ExTank** ever comes back. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/639 "2012-12-18T17:17:38Z")
Forgot to mention Starving Artist’s “welfare trap” comments. Why do conservatives (including Lloyd Blankfein) donate more to charity if handouts increase dependence? Why did Jefferson claim that relying on customers rather than self-sufficiency will lead to subservience and venality? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/640 "2012-12-18T17:32:14Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Who knows? I scrolled past it because it was way too long. Me, too. And I’m only here for a short time now so will have to come back to deconstruct/rebut it later. However given that it hasn’t gotten more play than it has, I may not bother. But, it’s good to see you again, **Lisa**! 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=33)