# 27 dead, 18 children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050 "2012-12-14T18:38:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/681 "2012-12-18T22:46:16Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Cars are intended for use on the road and are not kept in garages for safety’s sake but for storage and protection from the elements. > > Guns are intended for use in emergencies and should be available for use at a moment’s notice and not stowed away in such a way as to defeat the purpose of their existence. > > Different products, different usages, different reasons for placement when not is use. There is no comparison. > > As far as the statistics you request, I have no idea as to whether they even exist let alone where to find them. Nor do I with regard to accident injury/death vs. use of automobiles. So you propose I have a loaded, unlocked gun in my home with two 5 year olds? Are you mental? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/682 "2012-12-18T22:57:29Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Yeah, this mentally ill neighbor who didn’t take anything and spent twenty minute either looking for a woman in my bed or trying to get to the one upstairs. Who knows what his true intent was or what would have happened if he’d pulled off what he was up to. > > Yeah, unless he’s have pulled a gun himself, or a knife, or had enough knowledge which even I do to come in close and get inside where your bat is useless, whereupon knife stabbage and headbutts and nadknees and all sorts of disabling things can be done to you And if he had a gun or a knife and wanted to harm you you would already have been dead meat. Hypothetically he could have been a threat. In reality he wasn’t - not to you, anyhow. Maybe not to anyone. > [@](#): > > Actually, no. But I read up on it a lot and knew quite a lot about gun safety, even when having to fire (aiming in such a way that errant bullets or bullets that go through their target aren’t likely to hit someone in another room or another house, etc.). And you’d have remembered all this under threat, and in the dark? I had a class, at least, but I sure would not want to sleep with a gun under my pillow without a hell of a lot more training. > [@](#): > > Random nuts can do a lot of damage with anything. There’s absolutely no reason to ban anything because of what random nuts might do. But you try to keep the things that can do damage out of the hands of the random nuts, best you can. You take away drivers’ licenses from people who can’t handle them. I’d be reasonably satisfied if we’d at least start doing that for guns. > [@](#): > > Why do I suspect that no successful home defense story involving a gun would? :rolleyes: I don’t deny that they do. Your story isn’t an example, but I don’t deny they happen. Now some guy around here did use a gun in a classic home invasion situation, where he was targeted - and was prepared. He got his head blown off for his efforts. I’m sure you would do better, Mr. Wayne. But every gun kept at home to stop home invasions is more likely to be used to shoot people close to you or yourself. That’s what my link says. I read that the mother of the killer was a survivalist. I don’t know if that was true, or why she had the guns, but it might well have been for protection. Like I said, worked real good, didn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/683 "2012-12-18T23:26:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If you think you need to have a gun ready in almost every room, it is my opinion that you are a loon. Anyone else have a diferent opinion? I do. 😃 That isn’t to say that I recommend a gun in every room, or that I would have them that way myself. I never have and at this point don’t plan to. But I understand the thinking behind those who might and I don’t condemn them for it as long their behavior doesn’t become dangerous - a caveat that would apply to most of their actions in life. > [@April R](#): > > So you propose I have a loaded, unlocked gun in my home with two 5 year olds? Are you mental? At first I was tempted to ask you to quote just where it was that I posted such an idiotic proposition, but I get tired of asking people where I posted idiotic shit they claim I said that I never said, so I’ll just cut to the chase and say that to the degree you feel safe with only one gun, that you keep it in your nightstand next to your bed, loaded but with a trigger lock installed which you remove each night as part of your nightly routine before going to bed. If you’d like to have protection available during the day or evening hours you could keep the gun elsewhere and unlocked but where it would be in easy reach for you but out of reach for the children, such as on the top shelf of a closet, high in a kitchen cabinet, etc. Most people frankly don’t want to have to be handling their guns two to four times a day though so often they’ll opt for multiple guns, and that way they don’t have to be reminding themselves constantly of the need to protect themselves from the detritus of society. Of course this is easier for people without children in the house. They can leave unlocked guns wherever they feel most appropriate, but additional pains must be taken with children in the house, and so if the protection of a gun is desired then making the unlocking or retrieving from an out of reach spot each night as part of the nightly routine is about the only option. I would imagine that for most folk, one or two handguns or perhaps a handgun and shotgun is sufficient. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/684 "2012-12-18T23:39:41Z")
**April R** and **Czarcasm** strangely enough, if this [often quoted study](http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929/T5.expansion.html) is to be believed, if a firearm is going to be in the home, you are statistically safest if it is a single handgun and NOT stored under lock and key. I’m kind of an idiot, so maybe I am reading it all wrong. That just seems weird as hell. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/685 "2012-12-18T23:54:47Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And if he had a gun or a knife and wanted to harm you you would already have been dead meat. > Hypothetically he could have been a threat. In reality he wasn’t - not to you, anyhow. Maybe not to anyone. All of which is utterly meaningless to the discussion at hand. > [@Voyager](#): > > And you’d have remembered all this under threat, and in the dark? I think so. Contrary to popular opinion I’m quite a humane and caring guy, and I would honestly prefer harm to come to me rather than an innocent party in another apartment or house victimized by a careless shot from me. It was always uppermost in my mind when envisioning scenarios where I might have to shoot at someone (I was working as an armed guard, remember), and angles and vectors being what they are it doesn’t take that much of a slight upward or downward point to send a bullet safely on its way once its passed its target which is located much closer to you. Plus I was surprised at how calm I was during the entire episode. I wouldn’t have predicted that beforehand, but I was focused and calm and constantly analyzing things during most of it, and eventually, because he had no weapons in his hands and I’d been out late and had only two hours sleep and it was dark and I was still comfortably and warmly ensconced in my bed, I eventually even began to grow drowsy during the times he was out of the room doing whatever he was doing, and which wasn’t making any noise. I even testified in court, based on my report that I didn’t see a weapon and had come not to feel particularly threatened. > [@Voyager](#): > > I had a class, at least, but I sure would not want to sleep with a gun under my pillow without a hell of a lot more training. What can I say? I was young and failed to appreciate the possibility that I might be dreaming about firing the thing and blow my head off in my sleep. That I didn’t, or horribly maim myself instead, is one of the major blessings in my life. My great-grandfather, who I spent a lot of time growing up with and was a lifelong cop, gave me lots of advice on gun usage and safety, plus I had a couple of friends who were cops who did the same, plus like I said, I read up on it a lot. No one and nothing said not to sleep with your gun under your pillow, and I thought it would be more readily at hand that way in the event of intrusion, as the neighborhood I lived in at the time bordered on a bad part of town. Clearly none of these people or authors had had experience with dumbass twenty-somethings deciding to sleep with their weapons under their pillows, so it never occurred to them to warn against it. > [@Voyager](#): > > But you try to keep the things that can do damage out of the hands of the random nuts, best you can. You take away drivers’ licenses from people who can’t handle them. I’d be reasonably satisfied if we’d at least start doing that for guns. Nothing wrong with taking dangerous items away from “nuts.” The problem comes when people like you start proactively proclaiming people as nuts even though they haven’t harmed a soul and by most measures are living perfectly upstanding lives, and for politically based reasons you simply don’t like what they happen to be doing. > [@Voyager](#): > > I don’t deny that they do. Your story isn’t an example, but I don’t deny they happen. Now some guy around here did use a gun in a classic home invasion situation, where he was targeted - and was prepared. He got his head blown off for his efforts. I’m sure you would do better, Mr. Wayne. But every gun kept at home to stop home invasions is more likely to be used to shoot people close to you or yourself. That’s what my link says. And what I say is that I don’t expect people to have to leave themselves vulnerable to horrific crimes simply because some people carelessly or improperly handle the weapons they’ve purchased for the same reason. The analogy with cars still holds. Many more people get killed and injured as a result of the misuse of automobiles than through the misuse of firearms but no one’s calling for their bannination. So the concern obviously is not really the number of people being harmed, it’s just that you don’t like guns. > [@Voyager](#): > > I read that the mother of the killer was a survivalist. I don’t know if that was true, or why she had the guns, but it might well have been for protection. Like I said, worked real good, didn’t it? Yeah, for her it didn’t work out very well. Fortunately, the odds of that same thing happening to anyone else with guns in their home, survivalist or not, is about the same as hitting the lottery, so I don’t know what point you expect to be driving home with all that. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/686 "2012-12-19T00:00:42Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > **April R** and **Czarcasm** strangely enough, if this [often quoted study](http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929/T5.expansion.html) is to be believed, if a firearm is going to be in the home, you are statistically safest if it is a single handgun and NOT stored under lock and key. > > I’m kind of an idiot, so maybe I am reading it all wrong. That just seems weird as hell. It may well be safer. Kids are smart and curious and people are probably less cautious about their keys than they are their guns and it occurs to me that kids could probably get their hands on a key and unlock the gun fairly easily given enough time and opportunity. A better alternative is probably just to keep it well out of reach at the back of a top closet shelf or something. People all over the world have kept children safe from poisons and cleaning agents and medicines and so forth for centuries simply by keeping them out of reach. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/687 "2012-12-19T00:58:57Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > **April R** and **Czarcasm** strangely enough, if this [often quoted study](http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929/T5.expansion.html) is to be believed, if a firearm is going to be in the home, you are statistically safest if it is a single handgun and NOT stored under lock and key. > > I’m kind of an idiot, so maybe I am reading it all wrong. That just seems weird as hell. Page 160 (IIRC) says that there was no significant difference between the storage conditions. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/688 "2012-12-19T01:15:40Z")
So what city is it where there were 50-150 murders in 2011 and a 60% increase this year, Starving Artist? Don’t hide behind some bullshit “give me money” nonsense. Prove you’re telling the truth, like a normal person. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/689 "2012-12-19T01:23:59Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Page 160 (IIRC) says that there was no significant difference between the storage conditions. Sorry, that was page 935, last line before the Discussion. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/690 "2012-12-19T02:04:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Does homicide in the home include the death of a burglar who dies in the home he’s robbing? In 2009 there were 395 legally justified homicides. Called “legal intervention”. [http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr59/nvsr59\_04.pdf](http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr59/nvsr59_04.pdf) (forgotten the page number) In 2010 there were 405. [http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60\_04.pdf](http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_04.pdf) (page 45) Those pale in comparison with homicides and accidental deaths. In 2009 the ratio was 30:1 and in 2010 it was 29:1. Accidental death by firearms 600 (2010) 554 (2009) Suicide by firearms 19,308 (2010) 18,735 (2009) Murder by firearms 11,015 (2010) 11,493 (2009) (Out of a total of 16,065 fatal assaults in 2010) Legal intervention 405 (2010) 395 (2009) - it’s not clear to me that these are all firearms deaths. Let’s assume they are since that is better for the pro-gun argument. Undetermined intent firearms 246 (2010) 232 (2009) So let’s add these up for 2010. Firearm murders 11,015 Accidental gunshot deaths 600 Sub total 11,615 Suicides 19,308 Undertermined 246 Total 31,169 deaths by guns, except by legal action. Compare now to legal intervention of 405 11,615/405 = 28.68 or approximately 29:1. So in 2009 “bad” gunshot deaths outnumbered “good” gunshot deaths 30:1 (actually a tad higher) and that number improved to 28.68:1 in 2010. With suicides the total number ratio would be 76.97:1, or 77:1. Basically there were more legal action killings and fewer murders in '10 than '09, but more suicides, which is understandable given the economy. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/691 "2012-12-19T02:54:11Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I would imagine that for most folk, one or two handguns or perhaps a handgun and shotgun is sufficient. So you aren’t against a ban of high caliber semi-auto rifles and high capacity magazines, stockpiles of thousands of rounds of ammo, conversion kits to turn semi-auto guns into fully auto, gun shows that are able to bypass legal waiting periods and background checks, etc.? Many proponents of gun control would be willing to accept the statistically ill-founded but still understandable desire to have smaller caliber, non-military grade weapons and limited supplies of basic ammo for home protection. I don’t believe your story about the home intruder and your trusty .38. In fact I’m pretty sure if you were in such a situation you would be pissing your pants and trembling too badly to unholster a weapon much less use it effectively and the intruder would just use your own gun against you as happens in many cases. Your claim of murder statistics in your area is also an obvious figment of your imagination, but I do at least understand your poorly thought out rationale for wanting a last line of defense in your home regardless. That understanding is not incompatible with also not wanting every 18 year old in the country to be able to legally own a .223 with unlimited numbers of high capacity magazines and unlimited amounts of magnum load, hollow point ammunition. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/692 "2012-12-19T03:15:05Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > So what city is it where there were 50-150 murders in 2011 and a 60% increase this year, Starving Artist? Don’t hide behind some bullshit “give me money” nonsense. Prove you’re telling the truth, like a normal person. It’s not bullshit. If I’m gonna have to put up with years of crap related to where I’m from like I have about my age, it’s gonna cost ya. There are just too many chicken shitters around here. I already told you I’m not concerned enough about whether you believe me to subject myself to all that to absolutely no good end other than to convince you I’m telling the truth. A convinsation that would accomplish nothing anyway, once it were accomplished. So for me to just up and tell you presents absolutely no upside for me and a whole lot of downside. So why would I? Your research methods are faulty, that much I will say. You might want to set about devising some sort of test to try to determine where the problem lies. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/693 "2012-12-19T03:40:38Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > I don’t believe your story about the home intruder and your trusty .38. Tell ya what, assface. I’ll make you a 2-for-1 deal. Cough up five grand and I’ll not only provide you with information as to the city where I live along with murder rate information directly from city sources, but I’ll also provide you with a copy of the original police report on my break-in and court order remanding the intruder to a mental hospital. Cough up the cost of a transcript and I’ll even get you a copy of it too, and you read the testimony I gave which you will learn is completely in accordance with the account I’ve given here. My name will be redacted of course. That’s quite a bit better deal than **RickJay’s** been offered, but then you’ve been a lot more arrogant in your allegations of my dishonesty so I’m a little more interested in getting into your pockets (even though I doubt much can ever be found there but lint). So? Whadd’ya say? Put up or shut up. Ball’s in your court. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/694 "2012-12-19T03:49:52Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Tell ya what, assface. I’ll make you a 2-for-1 deal. Cough up five grand and I’ll not only provide you with information as to the city where I live along with murder rate information directly from city sources, but I’ll also provide you with a copy of the original police report on my break-in and court order remanding the intruder to a mental hospital. Cough up the cost of a transcript and I’ll even get you a copy of it too, and you read the testimony I gave which you will learn is completely in accordance with the account I’ve given here. My name will be redacted of course. > > That’s quite a bit better deal than **RickJay’s** been offered, but then you’ve been a lot more arrogant in your allegations of my dishonesty so I’m a little more interested in getting into your pockets (even though I doubt much can ever be found there but lint). > > So? Whadd’ya say? Put up or shut up. Ball’s in your court. Here’s my counter-offer: Give the info to back up your claim, or you’re full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/695 "2012-12-19T03:50:58Z")
Internet Tough Guy posturing is boring. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/696 "2012-12-19T04:10:02Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’m a little more interested in getting into your pockets Isn’t that what Sandusky says to you in a steam room in your recurring dream just before you wake up with a jolt and reach for a paper towel tube? I won’t pay 5 cents to see you attempt to prove your delusional claims although it would be entertaining enough to read and mock you if it were free. That isn’t the way it works. You make the idiotic claims, I call you a delusional idiot, and you are welcome to attempt to prove otherwise if you want. Until then you’re just a delusional idiot - i.e. the status quo. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/697 "2012-12-19T04:11:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Here’s my counter-offer: Give the info to back up your claim, or you’re full of shit. I’m perfectly willing to provide the info. My terms are on the table. If this board were moderated so that insults based upon personal information and inborn qualities such as age were prohibited (and isn’t that the claim as to why racism is so bad? That it condemns people for innate qualities they were born with and can’t change?), it would be different. But it isn’t, so it isn’t. Regard me as full of shit if you like. But this isn’t a schoolyard playground and taunts like that have little effect, trust me. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/698 "2012-12-19T04:15:15Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > Isn’t that what Sandusky says to you in a steam room in your recurring dream just before you wake up with a jolt and reach for a paper towel tube? > > I won’t pay 5 cents to see you attempt to prove your delusional claims although it would be entertaining enough to read and mock you if it were free. That isn’t the way it works. You make the idiotic claims, I call you a delusional idiot, and you are welcome to attempt to prove otherwise if you want. Until then you’re just a delusional idiot - i.e. the status quo. Le snore. Pardon my French. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/699 "2012-12-19T04:15:50Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’m perfectly willing to provide the info. My terms are on the table. If this board were moderated so that insults based upon personal information and inborn qualities such as age were prohibited (and isn’t that the claim as to why racism is so bad? That it condemns people for innate qualities they were born with and can’t change?), it would be different. But it isn’t, so it isn’t. Regard me as full of shit if you like. But this isn’t a schoolyard playground and taunts like that have little effect, trust me. Your jackass offer marks you as full of shit to one and all. I’m not labeling you-you label yourself as being full of shit when you make an offer like this one. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/700 "2012-12-19T04:17:41Z")
What the fuck is with your begging for someone to take a $5,000 bet lately? Do we need to pass the hat for you? Do you owe a bookie money of something? You know, there are hotlines you can call if you have a gambling problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=36)