# 27 dead, 18 children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050 "2012-12-14T18:38:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/761 "2012-12-22T19:25:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Why do you think 2011 numbers were “abnormally low”? I thought that a comment earlier mentioned this as a possible reason from before the thread was closed. Regardless, let the newspaper figure it out if they do a story on it, which I hope they will. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/762 "2012-12-22T19:27:30Z")
You’re an idiot. You just projected about 4 things onto me without knowing what the fuck you’re talking about. You’re the one who claimed not to believe the national statistics, like a fucking fool. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/763 "2012-12-22T20:13:39Z")
Then perhaps you’d like to explain just what it was you _were_ driving at? I might be willing to reconsider if you’d care to explain rather than just spew insults. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/764 "2012-12-22T20:14:29Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > But in MURDERS, it is way up. It had dropped into the 30s, actually, just 7-10 years ago. A robbery is not equal to a murder; conflating “violent crimes” with “murders” is hiding the fact that murders in OKC are, in fact, way, way up: > > Murders in the City of Oklahoma City (within city limits) > > 2001: 45 > 2002: 38 > 2003: 49 > 2004: 39 > 2005: 54 > 2006: 55 > 2007: 58 > 2008: 57 > 2009: 65 > 2010: 54 > 2011: 60 > > By any measure, going over 90 is a sudden, weird jump, and it’s dramatically higher than it was ten years ago. (If you go back another ten years, though, before the continent-wide crime rate started dropping, it was even worse back then.) So why is it worse now? > > Something unique to OKC? > > Bad economy? > > Fluke? Without conflating any other violent crimes (I was just making the point that 2011 was a record-breaking year for low numbers of violent crime overall in OK) there were normally about 60 homicides per year for the past 6 years. In 2012 there were an additional ~30 DOMESTIC murder/suicides and that is what accounts for the majority of the 60% increase overall. This is what the police, district attorneys, government, and media all report as the cause of the 60% increase in 2012. None of that paints a rosy picture for life in OKC overall but it doesn’t indicate any unusual spike in the type of crimes that would give additional reason to buy a gun to keep at home. If 500 people decide to kill themselves and their families in OKC next year for a 1000% increase in homicides SA won’t be any better off by upgrading his .38 to a flamethrower and grenade launcher, and he won’t be any worse off without the .38 at all. They are homicides but among people who know each other. They would occur even if every citizen in OK had a gun in their home. While an increase in murder/suicides in a city isn’t an argument to better arm oneself at home, there is an argument to be made that at least some of those domestic murders wouldn’t have happened if a gun hadn’t been in easy reach of an emotionally unstable person. (who no doubt owned the gun for reasons similar to SA originally) ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/765 "2012-12-22T20:27:04Z")
Had the murdered boyfriend in the murder/suicide I referenced just above had a gun, or had his beaten girlfriend had a gun and been willing to use it, I strongly suspect that she’s be less beaten today and her 25-year-old boyfriend who still had his whole life ahead of him would still be alive, and their familes’ lives would not be shattered and irrevocably altered forever more. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/766 "2012-12-22T20:47:10Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Then perhaps you’d like to explain just what it was you _were_ driving at? I might be willing to reconsider if you’d care to explain rather than just spew insults. You’re worthy of every insult thrown your way. What were you driving at when you claimed that every crime statistic in the US is bogus, unless it comes out of OKC? We’re you trying to come across as a lunatic, or was there some other reason for it? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/767 "2012-12-22T20:59:27Z")
I’m pretty sure you can’t point to where I said that. And because I have things to do today and it’s pretty clear you either don’t have an alternative point or don’t intend to explain it if you do I’m out of here for now. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/768 "2012-12-22T21:08:57Z")
Yes, I can, you fuckwit. You used the word “statistics” in quotes. You said you couldn’t believe that you lived in a bubble that differed from the rest of the country. You said Marley was full of shit. You said you didn’t believe the statistics. It all happened in post #395. Do those of us on the pro-gun side of the debate a favor, and fucking stay gone. You’re either a smart troll, or a really stupid poster and you add nothing to any debate in which you participate. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/769 "2012-12-22T21:45:14Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And on preview, had you seen **RickJay’s** table, **John** , you’d have found that your characterization of 2011’s murder rate as abnormally low is quite off the mark, as in fact it had second-highest murder rate of the entire preceeding decade. It’s the second highest total number of murders. I cannot say for sure it is the second highest RATE. Oklahoma City is a very fast growing city; the population is up almost fifty percent in the last twenty years. I am not sure if that is because of normal growth or because the city’s absorbing outlying areas, but twenty years ago OKC had a bit north of 400,000 people and now it’s over 600,000. It certainly is true that the murder rate remains much lower than it was twenty years ago, when 80-90 murders a year was normal, and there were far fewer people in OKC. The murder rate dropped like a stone for twenty years, just like it did almost everywhere in America. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/770 "2012-12-23T01:25:40Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Why the fuck are we even talking about Oklahoma City? Well, I clicked to this page after dropping out for the last ten or so, and I thought everybody was talking about OkCupid for a minute, which was kinda amusing. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/771 "2012-12-23T05:14:22Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > You’re either a smart troll, or a really stupid poster and you add nothing to any debate in which you participate. I’m hardly a troll, as I don’t post simply to piss people off. I never have and never will. I post to confront thinking I believe is wrong and results in harmful consequence. Plus this is the Pit, a forum deliberately set aside to allow people to give vent to their emotions and to insult other posters as they see fit and not be bound by the rules of the other forums. If you feel I’m interfering with some sort of a debate here in the Pit in a thread originally started to rant at a child killer, then perhaps you should start a debate in the forum designed for that purpose. It’s called GD, for Great Debates. Now, as to my being stupid and adding nothing to the discussion, allow me to quote from [this article](http://www.news9.com/story/20410837/murder-rate-soars-in-okc) and post some remarks made by Oklahoma criminologist Howard A. Kurtz and Oklahoma County District Attorney David Prater with regard to OKC’s current murder rate: > [@](#): > > “We have a pretty high gang presence, and there was a study done a few years ago. Oklahoma City was named as one of the top five in the United States as far as the number of gangs that existed,” said Kurtz. > > But, he also points out, that’s just part of the issue. Recently, there’s been a number of domestic issues like the one this past Friday on the northwest side of the city. > > “And with the domestic homicides, we tend to look at other factors,” said Kurtz. “Often times people want to include the economy as a major driving force in all of this.” > > But overall, Kurtz says the demographics for these murders are fairly classic. They’re happening in low income neighborhoods where there are young single mothers trying to raise children of their own. > [@](#): > > “People need to start engaging with their kids, and start being parents. We have too many kids on the street these days who haven’t had parents, and they grow up raising themselves.” > > “They have guns in their hands early. They’re using drugs and alcohol earlier and earlier, and they have no moral compass.” > > ~David Prater, Oklahoma County District Attorney Now does any of this ring a bell from my posts earlier in the thread? Remember when I talked about gangs and drugs and kids being born to young girls and growing up without fathers or responsible parenting raising themselves. And that that many know only the street and thug life (and hence guns in their hands and drugs and alcohol earlier and earlier)? And that they’re being brought up with no values (i.e., no moral compass)? These are highly educated professional men deeply enmeshed in the local crime scene, and here they are, making the very same observations that I’ve been making. Are they trolls or stupid too? And if not, then why am I? And good catch on the 2011 murder rate, **RickJay**. You’re correct, the list you posted shows the number of murders in 2011, not the rate. I misspoke. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/772 "2012-12-23T06:45:42Z")
None of those people denied the national crime statistics. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/773 "2012-12-23T07:09:49Z")
Actually I believe I said they were unverifiable. I also said that even if they’re correct and crime is down from what it once was (which thereby acknowledges the possibility that they are indeed correct), that it still doesn’t mean the level they’re at now is acceptable. So you are incorrect in your assertion that I denied the statistics. A more accurate description would be that I find them suspect, most likely due to under reporting by the various agencies from whom the data is drawn. But in calling me either stupid or a troll you claimed that I add nothing to any debates. This would indicate you are basing your opinion on far more than just that one comment. Is that correct, and if so how do you square that with the fact that this is the Pit and not GD, and that even so certain key points I’ve made in this thread which created a great deal of ire have just been borne out by two highly educated professionals who deal in crime every day? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/774 "2012-12-23T08:33:23Z")
Now I’m kinda curious what an acceptable murder rate looks like. Never seen such animal myself. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/775 "2012-12-23T11:26:23Z")
**Starving Artist** , it is beyond all dispute that you do indeed add nothing to discusssions around here. You offer nothing but farcical rants suggesting that conservatives are always happy, that liberals of the 60s caused literally all of our social ills, and that by obtaining civil rights too fast, African Americans got the sociological equivalent of the bends. Your pathological musings on Jerry Sandusky earned you the near universal scorn and derision of a board that cannot agree on anything. In the face of all of this you constantly declare yourself both perpetual victim and victor. You offer nothing of positive value to the board. Any sense of yours to the contrary is delusion. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/776 "2012-12-23T13:04:40Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Actually I believe I said they were unverifiable. I also said that even if they’re correct and crime is down from what it once was (which thereby acknowledges the possibility that they are indeed correct), that it still doesn’t mean the level they’re at now is acceptable. > > So you are incorrect in your assertion that I denied the statistics. A more accurate description would be that I find them suspect, most likely due to under reporting by the various agencies from whom the data is drawn. > > But in calling me either stupid or a troll you claimed that I add nothing to any debates. This would indicate you are basing your opinion on far more than just that one comment. Is that correct, and if so how do you square that with the fact that this is the Pit and not GD, and that even so certain key points I’ve made in this thread which created a great deal of ire have just been borne out by two highly educated professionals who deal in crime every day? Liar. You said you didn’t believe them. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/777 "2012-12-23T13:33:53Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Now I’m kinda curious what an acceptable murder rate looks like. Never seen such animal myself. It’s when all the black people murder other black people, and ONLY other black people. Duh. Note: substitute “Mexicans,” if applicable. ---
**Author:** ![Batfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Batfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batfish)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/778 "2012-12-23T14:20:16Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Had the murdered boyfriend in the murder/suicide I referenced just above had a gun, or had his beaten girlfriend had a gun and been willing to use it, I strongly suspect that she’s be less beaten today and her 25-year-old boyfriend who still had his whole life ahead of him would still be alive, and their familes’ lives would not be shattered and irrevocably altered forever more. I’m reminded of an old Doonesbury strip. Duke has been hired by the NRA and appears before a Senate committee considering gun control legislation. (paraphrasing from memory) Duke: Senator, what if your wife is trying to kill you with a handgun? Senator: So? Duke: Wouldn’t you want to be in a position to return fire? ---
**Author:** ![Batfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Batfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batfish)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/779 "2012-12-23T14:39:09Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > …A more accurate description would be that I find them suspect… Probably for the same reason you and your thoughtful friends found the pre-election polls suspect, because they don’t agree with your preconceptions. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Nader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Darth\_Nader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Nader)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/780 "2012-12-23T19:33:10Z")
Wow. Knowing **SA** is from OKC actually clears a lot of things up. Last time I had to drive through Oklahoma we stopped in Norman for the night instead, just to avoid that shithole of a town. It’s not Mayberry or Spingfield, it’s a really more like the big truckstop you see on the side where a state highway crosses an interstate. A good place to take a leak. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=40)