# 27 dead, 18 children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050 "2012-12-14T18:38:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/61 "2012-12-14T20:33:44Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Do you think the greatest generation spent years weeping and reflecting what victims they were after Pearl Harbor? By making it into such a big deal, by making it the worst thing ever THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING, we gave the terrorists the reaction they were after. > . I know this is way off topic, but I think their response to Pearl Harbor was nearly identical to our response to 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/62 "2012-12-14T20:36:34Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Legal gun ownership may be a net good ignoring all of the issues with rights/freedom/sporting uses/etc/etc. Even people who are looking to prove how useless guns are in self defense have come up with the number 250,000 defensive gun uses per year. Now clearly all of those didn’t prevent a murder, but you ignore the very real possibility that the presence of a gun prevented a murder, a rape, a home invasion. > > But every time this happens, sometimes it isn’t reported to the police, and almost never do you actually see a story in the media that reports positive gun use by the good guys. You never have a big story like this to latch onto, so you never see the quiet background noise where guns in the hands of the good guys did good. > > I say this is in every thread, but could someone come up with the number of deaths average per year from spree shooters? I think we came up with 2 dozen or so last time. The fact that you are all so very outraged by something that is utterly miniscule in terms of cause of death means that you aren’t actually looking at the world with a level head and a reasoned perspective, trying to figure out what policy changes would be most effective. No, it shows that you are all just emotionally reacting to the narratives that the media throws in front of you, with no perspective at all on what it means towards the greater picture. > > Taking guns out of the equation, if 20 kids were to die today, seperately, by getting the hands on dangerous household chemicals and poisoning yourself, it wouldn’t strike you at all. But if 20 were killed by an evil lunchlady who poisoned your food, you’d be gobbling up the tragedy for days, there’d be media coverage for weeks. Are the latter 20 kids more important? Their deaths more tragic? Or do you just latch onto whatever the media decides makes a simple, emotional story rather than taking the wider view? You make some good debatable points. But I’m not talking about that. **Crafter\_Man** gave an impossible hypothetical. And of the choices given in his own hypothetical, he chose the one that only a psychopath would choose. The main reason most gun owners want there guns is for self defense. **CM** gave a choice where in you wouldn’t need a gun for self defense. But no, fuck that, **CM** would rather have his guns and dead children apparently. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/63 "2012-12-14T20:37:23Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > I know this is way off topic, but I think their response to Pearl Harbor was nearly identical to our response to 9/11. They invaded Canada in response!? I guess I don’t know, but I can’t imagine people of that era getting all so recreationally weepy and having the sheer joy of trying to be part of the victim group that we had after 9/11. I don’t think that really existed in their culture. They said “well that sucks, let’s go kick some ass”, not “oh god look at me, this is the worst thing ever, how can I live another day, everything changed! woe is me!” etc. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/64 "2012-12-14T20:37:31Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Yes, actually, 9/11 works for me as an analogy. People reacted to it in a completely retarded way, that shows that they’re all a bunch of recreational victims. People from all over the country, who weren’t personally affected at all, were talking about how the event ruined their lives. Some people said they’d never fly again. THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING, etc. > > And what’d we get out of it? Months of weepy coverage. We all got to be part of the fun victim club. We got the Patriot Act. We got a ridiculous war in Iraq. We got new TSA security procedures. We gave a big victory to the terrorists, because after all, their reason to do this was our emotional reaction to it. Do you think the greatest generation spent years weeping and reflecting what victims they were after Pearl Harbor? By making it into such a big deal, by making it the worst thing ever THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING, we gave the terrorists the reaction they were after. > > So yes, basically, I feel roughly the same about 9/11 and stuff like this. Shit happens. Don’t get fixated on how it makes you a victim. Move past it. Don’t overreact to it. Don’t pass the patriot act. I agree with a lot of this, but you can’t possibly believe mass murders aren’t newsworthy and won’t get extensive coverage immediately following the event. The fact that some people get off on grieving by proxy doesn’t mean the event isn’t a big deal or that it shouldn’t spark discussion on related issues. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/65 "2012-12-14T20:37:41Z")
I did get a chance to see Lanza’s Facebook page right before FB deleted it. From his photos he appeared to be a nerdy beta male (acne, dorky looking, bearded, etc.) He also had three videos on his FB page: The first was a demonstration of how he had trained his pet cat to sit on command (male cat ownership is pretty beta). The second was a scene from some sort of video game that showed a car flying through the air, rotating in 3-dimensional space crashing into various objects (video games are for beta males). The third was a video of him struggling to reach the upper level of a bunk bed. I think bunk beds are only 5 ft. high, but he apparently was so short that he had to get a running start from across the room just to be able to pull himself on top of it (shortness = beta). Seems like this guy suffered nerdy virgin beta male rage. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/66 "2012-12-14T20:38:56Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > I did get a chance to see Lanza’s Facebook page right before FB deleted it. Really? Even thought the name that’s been reported was wrong and the FB profile that went out was not the right guy? Please share more fascinating insights about what you’ve learned about the guy based on his cat videos, doctor. I’m terrified of nerdy beta males now. ---
**Author:** ![Neo-Calredic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/96bed5/32.png) [@Neo-Calredic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neo-Calredic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/67 "2012-12-14T20:40:15Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Nope. > > Giving a choice between a) keeping my guns and living with the current crime rate, and b) giving up my guns and a guarantee there will never be another murder in this country using a firearm, I would choose the former. Well, at least you’re not **hiding** the fact that you’re a sociopathic froot-loop. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/68 "2012-12-14T20:42:19Z")
[quote=“RTFirefly, post:54, topic:644050”] No, we’re saying, GODDAMN IT, WHY DID THOSE KIDS HAVE TO DIE?? Just to preserve your damned “rights?” /QUOTE] Right. If only strict gun controls were in place [what a wonderful world it would be.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre) ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/69 "2012-12-14T20:42:38Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > They invaded Canada in response!? > > I guess I don’t know, but I can’t imagine people of that era getting all so recreationally weepy and having the sheer joy of trying to be part of the victim group that we had after 9/11. I don’t think that really existed in their culture. They said “well that sucks, let’s go kick some ass”, not “oh god look at me, this is the worst thing ever, how can I live another day, everything changed! woe is me!” etc. What about Canada? They were very weepy, then they got very angry, then they declared war. Pretty much the exact same thing that happened after 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/70 "2012-12-14T20:44:25Z")
Are you pro-gun arguers fucking insane? Drain cleaner cleans drains. It may kill people but that’s not what it was intended to do. Cars kill people, but it also transports us. Guns’ only purpose is to take a piece of metal and fling it at high rates of speed for use as a weapon. That’s its purpose. Call it defense. Call it hunting. Call it target practice (practice for what?). Its sole use is to destroy. If you can’t differentiate the difference between a gun ban and a drain cleaner ban, you’ve officially deluded yourself past the point of no return. The 2nd amendment is archaic, outdated, and flat out stupid to begin with for a million different reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/71 "2012-12-14T20:44:49Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Serious question here, and I am not attacking gun ownership rights: What is YOUR proposal to keep firearms out of the hands of crack-pots? > > As you say, guns are not going away, so what can be done to prevent this sort of thing? What does the gun lobby think? Or, do you say we just accept this as part of being a free society? Nothing can be done without infringing upon the rights of others. If you wish to live in a free society, you must be willing to put up with a certain amount of shit. If you cannot or will not tolerate a certain amount of shit, you should seek citizenship in a society that enacts laws that minimize the chance of shit occurring (at the expense of curtailed liberties, of course). You can’t have freedom _and_ security. The more you have of one, the less you have of the other. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/72 "2012-12-14T20:47:35Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Clearly we need to get serious about control of the news media and video games and movies. And nothing else. Oh, I forgot one: we have way too much health care. Let’s get rid of some more of that. It costs too much money. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/73 "2012-12-14T20:48:12Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > I agree with a lot of this, but you can’t possibly believe mass murders aren’t newsworthy and won’t get extensive coverage immediately following the event. There’s coverage, and then there’s coverage. A simple recounting of the events is one thing. But the 24-hour news media, in its quest for ratings, keeps going over and over and over these tragedies - and in the process, puts the killer’s name front and center. In death, the killer becomes famous (or rather, infamous) - something he couldn’t achieve in his loser life. And yes, that DOES encourage other losers elsewhere to go out in a blaze of media-amplified notoriety. (And it’s not just me saying this - Gavin de Becker said it a decade or more ago. We need to stop giving these losers the fame they want.) ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/74 "2012-12-14T20:48:38Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > What about Canada? Our emotional reaction that WE MUST DO SOMETHING after 9/11 allowed the neocons to invade Iraq, who had nothing to do with 9/11. It would be as if we responded to Pearl Harbor by invading Canada. (And don’t say we went to war with Germany too - they declared war on us first) > [@](#): > > They were very weepy, then they got very angry, then they declared war. Pretty much the exact same thing that happened after 9/11. I find it extremely difficult to believe that they reacted with the same sort of emotion. But that’s because I have a hard time articulating this. What I saw after 9/11 was a whole lot of recreational victimhood. People secretly almost gleeful that they got to be part of this victim club, so they all tried to one-up each other with stories about how 9/11 affected them personally so deeply. I’m not talking about the people who actually lost loved ones, I mean the people in nebraska who baked american flag cakes and cried themselves to sleep every night. I realize that injecting this unpopular view of mine into the thread just compounds my other unpopular views. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/75 "2012-12-14T20:48:48Z")
This appears to be where people are talking about the gun issue. For the gun control advocates: 1. What limits would you put on gun ownership. 2. How would they prevent gun crime. I believe the United Kingdom may have the most restrictive gun laws of any OECD country I’m immediately aware of, I also know such restrictions are simply a complete fictitious scenario here in the United States. We can talk about such a scenario if you want, but it’d be pure fiction. Assuming we instead adopted a more balanced gun control regime, like they have in the Scandinavian countries, Germany, Austria, even Canada, I don’t see how the laws in any of those countries would prevent the acquisition of firearms sufficient to do stuff like this. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/76 "2012-12-14T20:49:44Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > They invaded Canada in response!? No, but they did lock up everyone west of the Rockies who had Japanese ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/77 "2012-12-14T20:50:08Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Are you pro-gun arguers fucking insane? Drain cleaner cleans drains. It may kill people but that’s not what it was intended to do. Cars kill people, but it also transports us. Guns’ only purpose is to take a piece of metal and fling it at high rates of speed for use as a weapon. That’s its purpose. Call it defense. Call it hunting. Call it target practice (practice for what?). Its sole use is to destroy. > > If you can’t differentiate the difference between a gun ban and a drain cleaner ban, you’ve officially deluded yourself past the point of no return. > > The 2nd amendment is archaic, outdated, and flat out stupid to begin with for a million different reasons. You missed my point entirely. My point wasn’t about a drain cleaner ban, or that poisons kill more kids than guns. I was asking if 20 kids dying from random poisonings on one day was worse than one person poisoning the same amount of kids. It was actually an analogy about emotional reactions to narratives rather than being about gun control. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/78 "2012-12-14T20:51:52Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Legal gun ownership may be a net good ignoring all of the issues with rights/freedom/sporting uses/etc/etc. Even people who are looking to prove how useless guns are in self defense have come up with the number 250,000 defensive gun uses per year. This is pure bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/79 "2012-12-14T20:52:46Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > No, we’re saying, GODDAMN IT, WHY DID THOSE KIDS HAVE TO DIE?? Just to preserve your damned “rights?” These kids didn’t die to preserve my right to lawfully own firearms for 25 years, without a single incident, injury, or fatality, or to keep them safely locked up, unloaded, in a gun safe that’s anchored into the floor. They are the victims of a seriosly disturbed individual. Short of a complete handgun ban, house-to-house searches, and immediate death penalties applied on the spot for anyone caught with a prohibited firearm, how, exactly, would anyone prevent these kinds of incidents? **Kimmy Gibbler** gets it right: if you want change, then you have to fundamentally restructure the constitution, eliminating the 2nd Amendment, and proceeding from a regulatory standpoint after that. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/80 "2012-12-14T20:54:18Z")
Gun fetishists are fucking vile. I read online all the time about what these perpetual 12 year old cowboys would do in situations like this and how they carry ALL the time whether they’re allowed or not, and yet where the fuck are they? There’s a huge gun lobby and the NRA is everywhere, so how come the Bruce Willis’ of the world ain’t saving the day? They still have all their shit that is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to protect themselves against kids in hoodies eating Skittles, playing music too loud at convenience stores or teachers and kindergartners, so why can’t they stop any of this that they are so well-trained and well-armed for? Yeah, let the excuses begin. It’s Obama / libtards / hippie lovin’ bleeding heart / pussy / gun control’s fault. Uh huh. And I’m not even a huge gun control advocate, but anyone with a modicum of sense could at least seek out the common denominator between cases like this. And not be so wedded to the gun culture that they say that 30 dead people is insignificant or that having no gun deaths isn’t preferable to no guns. There are not enough roll eyes in the world. Finally, yes, it’s true that determined nut cases will find some other way if their instrument(s) of death were not so readily available. However, that’s the point in that guns can be had so quickly (and in the heat of the moment, if necessary) and easily, either legally or not. How many people are going to take the time to learn to build a bomb? It’s not immediate, probably takes a fair bit of intelligence and commitment, and just isn’t as simple as loading up on the arsenal that always seems to be waiting right around the fucking corner. The attitudes about holding on to one’s guns at all costs is ducking sick. Disgusting assholes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=5)