# 27 dead, 18 children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050 "2012-12-14T18:38:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/121 "2012-12-14T21:29:53Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > I’m so F\*\*cking sick of politics. We’ve sunken so low as a people that we can’t even wait for children’s corpses to cool before we start arguing about gun control laws. Being right is more important than being human. This day has been disappointment after disappointment - in myself, in my friends, in humankind. We can’t even act worthy of what little comforts we are given in this life. I’m trying to think of a reason to stay on this godforsaken hellhole of a planet but nothing comes immediately to mind. Fuck this bullshit! We’re always being told to wait to have the discussion. Which bodies need to be cool? The ones from CT? OR? CO? Yeah, let’s keep waiting. Right now, there’s a kid getting off a schoolbus in the US who will be dead next month in order to pay the cost or CrafterMans fetish. Let’s keep waiting for all the bodies to be cold. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/122 "2012-12-14T21:29:55Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Try again. I’m a normal, educated, rational, law-abiding, well-adjusted adult. With one child in elementary school and two in high school. I also understand freedom is not free, and that I must tolerate a certain amount of shit in society in exchange for preserving my freedoms & liberties. How is life in [Omelas](http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/dunnweb/rprnts.omelas.pdf)? ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/123 "2012-12-14T21:30:11Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > The only masturbation I see so far are gun control advocates rushing in to gleefully shout “I told you so!” over the bodies of dead elementary school kids. In another thread in GD recently, several people claimed gun rights advocates rushed in first after incidents like these. I said, of course, that’s ridiculous - after all, we’re responding to emotional outcries from others, and it makes no sense that the replies come first. Witness these threads, where no gun rights advocate shows up anytime soon, and there’s a big circle jerk over mocking our (not yet existing) response. Yeah, and when a 90 year old woman dies in her bed in her sleep, her family are all “She was old; It was her time; She had a good life” but if someone murders her in her bed her family are all “She was our world; How could you take her from us; How do we live without her”. What’s up with that? ---
**Author:** ![Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a587f6/32.png) [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lago_Ys-Transform)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/124 "2012-12-14T21:31:10Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > I’m so F\*\*cking sick of politics. We’ve sunken so low as a people that we can’t even wait for children’s corpses to cool before we start arguing about gun control laws. Being right is more important than being human. This day has been disappointment after disappointment - in myself, in my friends, in humankind. We can’t even act worthy of what little comforts we are given in this life. I’m trying to think of a reason to stay on this godforsaken hellhole of a planet but nothing comes immediately to mind. How smarmily disingenuous of you. Opening or delaying a debate at _any_ point favors one side or another. And for debates which necessarily involve black swans stemming from a particular culture, delaying the debate favors the side that wants to do nothing or enhance said culture. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/125 "2012-12-14T21:31:24Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Pretty soon the gun nuts will check in with their masturbatory fantasies about how more people packing heat would have gotten to the shooter before the cops could. And of course “NOW IS NOT THE TIME TO TALK ABOUT GUNS!” Jesus titty-fucking Christ. How many people have to die for your fucking “right” to a steel phallus? According to the NRA, [1000 kids.](http://www.theonion.com/articles/nra-sets-1000-killed-in-school-shooting-as-amount,28352/) ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/126 "2012-12-14T21:32:04Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I’m asking you for a cite for your bullshit claim. > **[GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense?](https://guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html)** > > A discussion of defensive gun use surveys. There’ve been over a dozen surveys which average somewhere over the 1 million mark. There was indeed one that came up with only 108k, but it was fairly flawed, as per the description there. But fine, let’s go with 108k. Ignoring the 108k positive defensive gun uses is ignoring a huge part of the equation. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/127 "2012-12-14T21:32:58Z")
[There’s a petition at WhiteHouse.gov](https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/set-date-and-time-have-conversation-about-gun-policy-united-states/gzWCnDSX#thank-you=p) (since \*\*\*now \*\*\*is not the time to talk about gun control) to set a date and time to talk about gun control. ---
**Author:** ![Scougs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scougs/32/3158_2.png) [@Scougs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scougs)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/128 "2012-12-14T21:34:26Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > But again, aside from the UK most of the world allows some level of reasonable gun ownership (even in the UK there are ways to get legal shotguns.) Do you really think the United States will become the second country in the world to impose UK style gun regulations? No, but I haven’t had my question answered as to why people have guns, either. Look, I know I sound naive, and I’m doing it on purpose. I’m deliberately trying to give you a UK viewpoint, not impose it. My Facebook newsfeed tonight is awash with bafflement at US gun laws. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/129 "2012-12-14T21:35:38Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > **Kimmy Gibbler** gets it right: if you want change, then you have to fundamentally restructure the constitution, eliminating the 2nd Amendment, and proceeding from a regulatory standpoint after that. Thank you. I am actually sincerely heartened to read this: I know that you are more favorably disposed to gun rights and ownership than I am. I don’t think you have made a 180 in that stance, but I am gratified to see that you perceived a very important point implicit in my remarks that I overlooked making explicitly. That you were willing and able to do so suggests the possibility of both sides working together to effectuate a compromise that might reduce the frequency and lethality of these tragedies. In advocating for a repeal, I do not hope to confiscate all guns. I even have some sympathy to the view that guns, like any dangerous implement, should not be wholesale banned merely because of their dangerousness. Instead, smart regulations that balance the legitimate uses of guns (which can even include a measure of simple firearms enthusiasm) against the perils of non-regulation should be sought. The view obstacle to striking this balance is the Second Amendment. By its repeal, gun regulation would become just another regulated item, like cars or mortgages. Cars and mortgages aren’t banned, nor or they impossible to get. So nobody should argue that 2A repeal would lead to such an outcome. Instead, it would allow us to make policy of responsible gun distribution and ownership according to modern facts. Policy decisions should never be constitutionalized, as we are poor forecasters of what the state of the world will be generations hence. We should acknowledge that the Framers never imagined anything like the U.S. of A. of the 21st century. Their motive for the 2A, to preserve the possibility of armed resistance to the government, is these days risible. But will can still preserve the value that responsible gun distribution and ownership is not inconsistent with regulations directed to minimizing the possibilities of gun massacres. (I welcome the pro-2A side to weigh on that, but, if they just want to say “no regulations ever” and walk away … Well, then I’d be done with their opponents writing the regs without their input. The choice is yours pro-2A side.) Anyways, I am genuinely hopeful to see a pro-2A party note the outrageousness of these crimes and acknowledge that there are things that can be done (and that taking part in the debate generally gets your side taken more seriously–and makes your input more politically effective–than stonewalling and pretending 20 dead kids ain’t no thang) ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/130 "2012-12-14T21:36:12Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I find it hard to believe that you’ve missed the dozens of threads in which people who actually know shit about guns have explained to you that you don’t, that the things you propose don’t actually make sense. I know people around here like to dismiss those facts as “gun nut trivia”. Oh, I avoid gun control threads like the plague because they’re pointless. I have no illusions that what I’ve proposed will ever come to pass – the pro-gun faction of this country has been and will likely continue to be very effective at blocking any real reform. > [@](#): > > The most deadly thing you can use in a spree like these is a standard 12ga shotgun. Those things absolutely destroy things at close range, which is where all of these things take place. Shooters often pick cooler looking weapons - not because they’re more effective but because they look cooler. They’re going for infamy. So a shotgun with a limited magazine capacity (e.g. four shells) would be exactly as deadly in shooting sprees as a semi-automatic pistol or rifle? Banning all those other rapid-fire weapons would make no difference at all? Sorry, I don’t believe you. > [@](#): > > The sort of push you’re making is what results in nonsensical assault weapons bans that ban stuff like bayonet lugs and pistol grips because they can’t actually ban functionality, because you fail to realize that the difference between these scary looking guns and more common guns that you’d consider wholesome and normal looking is exactly that - cosmetic, not functional. What push? I answered what I think would make an actual difference in reducing these kinds of mass killings. I’m well aware that the NRA and its supporters make it impossible to enact meaningful gun control reform, leading only to the sort of cosmetic restrictions that you decry. ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/131 "2012-12-14T21:37:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Thank you for dismissing your own factoid so the rest of us didn’t have to. Thank you for snipping my post out of context. Read the second link I provided and stop being a douche. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/132 "2012-12-14T21:37:10Z")
[Quote=ExTank] Here’s an idea: peel back or otherwise modify HIPPA and other patient privacy acts so that physicians and social workers can identify and report people they think may be potential threats for these kinds of things; encourage people to come forward to identify friends or family members who might, a) be having the kinds of problems, and expressing the kinds of sentiments, that typically lead up to these kinds of shootings, and, b) have access to firearms, or express interest in aquiring them. [/QUOTE] In the DSM 5, callous and deficient affective experience are being added as indicators of a psychiatric disorder. I see several highly callous motherfuckers right in this thread. Can we take their guns away? Anxiety is also already an indicator of several psychiatric disorders. Gun owners are very scared little people. Can we take their guns away? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/133 "2012-12-14T21:37:27Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > [GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense?](http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html) > > There’ve been over a dozen surveys which average somewhere over the 1 million mark. There was indeed one that came up with only 108k, but it was fairly flawed, as per the description there. But fine, let’s go with 108k. Ignoring the 108k positive defensive gun uses is ignoring a huge part of the equation. This kind of crap always get quoted and its utter bullshit. You’re saying surveys, people who already own guns being asked how many times they’ve used it to defend themselves, is a non-biased source? Hey, I’m not a gun owner, I’d like to report how many times I’ve been threatened by a gun that may have involved death if not for my handsomely genius quick thinking. I’ll go with 109k ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/134 "2012-12-14T21:38:54Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > That’s fine with me. I am happy leaving guns in people’s hands that let them (a) hunt (and I don’t see anything wrong with hunters having to actually have some amount of skill) and (b) shoot a home invader. Beyond that, I think the onus should be on would-be gun owners to justify why they need something that could hurt a lot of people in the wrong hands. > > As I said, I don’t expect this to magically solve gun violence. But I also don’t see the harm. I value the lives of those kids in Connecticut about a million times more than I value the enjoyment of a hobbyist who likes to shoot off powerful weapons. I get that the latter is often a responsible person who poses no threat to society. But it’s not worth the cost to me. So you’re advocating a more restrictive regime than in most of Europe (save the UK), basically taking the U.S. from being the most permissive gun country in the Western world to the second or third most restrictive. What number of votes do you imagine such a piece of legislation getting in the House, and the Senate? In the current congress (not the one being sworn in in January) you’d immediately lose 240 votes in the House as I do not believe a single Republican would vote for such legislation. After that I see you losing a ton of House Democrats as well: John Tester MT, Mike Ross AR, Heath Shuler NC, Dan Boren OK, Ron Kind WI, Ben Nelson NE, Mike Thompson CA, would all never vote for such legislation, and they are just the “most” pro-gun Democrats. There are many more that would never vote for your proposal. Even Democrats like Bennie Thompson that oppose all concealed carry for example voted against background checks at gun shows and etc, that guy has an F rating from the NRA and would not vote for your legislation. So it’s dead in the House already. But even in the Senate, I can’t see you getting even 40 votes for such legislation, let alone a majority. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/135 "2012-12-14T21:38:59Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Anyways, I am genuinely hopeful to see a pro-2A party note the outrageousness of these crimes and acknowledge that there are things that can be done (and that taking part in the debate generally gets your side taken more seriously–and makes your input more politically effective–than stonewalling and pretending 20 dead kids ain’t no thang) No one is pretending it isn’t anything. They’re just pretending it’s consistent with the background noise. Statistically, 27 people died from gunshot wounds in the US yesterday, and the day before, and the day before. I’m just saying that if you’re going to propose changes to gun laws, it should be because of that, not because one day’s 27 was so easy to package into a story and appeal to your emotions. The fact that we think spree shooting is such a big deal despite it being only a very small number of the total gun deaths means that we’re reacting emotionally, not logically. And large changes to societal policy should not come from knee jerk reactions. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/136 "2012-12-14T21:39:06Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > [GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense?](http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html) > > There’ve been over a dozen surveys which average somewhere over the 1 million mark. There was indeed one that came up with only 108k, but it was fairly flawed, as per the description there. But fine, let’s go with 108k. Ignoring the 108k positive defensive gun uses is ignoring a huge part of the equation. You said a gun control advocate came up with an estimate of 250K. Cite your bullshit claim. ---
**Author:** ![Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a587f6/32.png) [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lago_Ys-Transform)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/137 "2012-12-14T21:40:10Z")
> [@bup](#): > > There’s a petition at [WhiteHouse.gov](http://WhiteHouse.gov) (since now is not the time to talk about gun control) to set a date and time to talk about gun control. The Democratic party doesn’t want to talk about gun control at all. And I don’t blame them. Personally, I would be tickled pink if Obama announced that he was going to automatically veto any legislation that pertained to tightening standards on guns. If this board is any indication, American gunowners are so butthurt and hysterical over their exploding dildos that they will willingly engage in any kind of brinksmanship if they are not continually soothed and ego-stroked over their penis replacements. And considering that we have **much more salient policy points to address** (like, oh, Climate Change) I consider the dozens of dead children a year a fucking bargain. You work with the citizenry you have, not the citizenry you wish you have. Even if they are putrid, histrionic, single-issue morons. Incidentally, this is precisely why I am enthusiastic about drone strikes despite being a bleeding heart liberal. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/138 "2012-12-14T21:42:44Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Nope. > > Giving a choice between a) keeping my guns and living with the current crime rate, and b) giving up my guns and a guarantee there will never be another murder in this country using a firearm, I would choose the former. Then you’re a hopelessly amoral asshole who is beyond redemption and humanity. Perhaps if one of your own children or other loved one dies at the hands of someone like this, you’ll have a change of heart, but I’m thinking probably not. What a fucking tool. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/139 "2012-12-14T21:43:15Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > You said a gun control advocate came up with an estimate of 250K. Cite your bullshit claim. Can we jump ahead to your conclusion that no such number exists from a source that isn’t pro gun, because all of these defensive gun uses are fictitious and only pro-gun sources come up with them? It would save me some time, because the 250k is rough from memory, and I have to dig around for the actual study. But since we’re going to go to the next point anyway, why not just go ahead and do that now? ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/140 "2012-12-14T21:45:19Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > So you’re advocating a more restrictive regime than in most of Europe (save the UK), basically taking the U.S. from being the most permissive gun country in the Western world to the second or third most restrictive. What number of votes do you imagine such a piece of legislation getting in the House, and the Senate? I’m not advocating anything, I know it’s pointless. But you asked what gun control advocates would like to see happen and what they expected the outcome to be, and I answered. I’d think you’d be happy that at least one person answered your questions without references to guns as penis substitutes. Want to answer the question I asked in return? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=8)