# 27 dead, 18 children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050 "2012-12-14T18:38:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/161 "2012-12-14T22:20:44Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Well, this is what you get, kids - an entire generation of uneducated ne’er-do-wells with all the wrong values who can’t hack it and who either look to guns and crime for their livelihood and amusement, or to guns and multiple killings as a way to strike back at society for creating their loserhood and to push them over the edge to their own suicide. Won’t somebody please think of the paper towel rolls? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/162 "2012-12-14T22:23:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Won’t somebody please think of the paper towel rolls? Yes, pardon me while I assign **SA** ’s views on “wrong values” into the proper receptacle. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/163 "2012-12-14T22:24:22Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, typically, you fucked it up. It’s how much _better_ things used to be before hippies and liberals “fixed” everything. To wit: > > [Ahem](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/14/five-killed-jersey-knife-attack). > > and > > [Ahem](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57559179/china-school-knife-attack-leaves-23-injured/). > > and > > [Ahem](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1036154/A-knife-attack-4-minutes-130-000-year--ministers-insist-crime-rates-falling.html). [Ahem](http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1558942). > > Note that the first post in the last link calls for guns as an answer to the problem. 😃 > > The point is, though, that people who want to harm large numbers of other people will always find a way to do so, wether by knife, bomb, fire, automobile or whatever. Most of the gun-related killings in this country are gang, ghetto, drug, or scuzzbug related anyway, and those can mostly be laid at the feet of those of your political persuasion, as you’ve spent that last fifty years manufacturing the perpetrators of them at the greatest rate possible. All this is the inevitable consequence of the breakdown of societal values which began in the sixties. It’s only gonna get worse kiddoes. In my midwestern flyover whitebread city murders are up over 50% from just a year ago and drugs and criminality infest every school and every neighborhood. Currently something like 39 states permit concealed carry of firearms and the likelihood is that the number will be much closer to 50 ten years from now as this society continues to throw off even more of these scuzzbugs and their associated criminality and as its citizens continue to feel less and less safe. > > This is all an inevitable consequence of the breakdown of societal values that began in the sixties, and which has been exacerbated by liberal defense of gangsta, thug and illegal immigrant/drug cartel influences upon society, in which every attempt is made to thwart law enforcement and society in their efforts to criticize and discourage them, or to contain and suppress them. > > Well, this is what you get, kids - an entire generation of uneducated ne’er-do-wells with all the wrong values who can’t hack it and who either look to guns and crime for their livelihood and amusement, or to guns and multiple killings as a way to strike back at society for creating their loserhood and to push them over the edge to their own suicide. > > And it’s just gonna get worse because more and more of them are created every day, and that will continue to be the case until you wake up and realize that a society needs coherence, children properly raised by two parents and instilled with proper values, an education system that actually functions, and modes of behavior that include respect, politeness and consideration for others. You know - qualities that you pretty much find laughable. > > But be that as it may, things are what they are and until people like you wake up and get a clue, **BLD** , it’s unquestionable that “steel phalluses” are simply going to flourish…and not as phalli, but as protection from the products of your wrongheaded, shortsighted and self-indulgent attempts at social engineering. You forgot to mention video games. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/164 "2012-12-14T22:25:02Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Yes, pardon me while I assign **SA** ’s views on “wrong values” into the proper receptacle. Don’t interrupt. He might have more to say about the selfish loser kids who for some reason don’t give a flying fuck about what his opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/165 "2012-12-14T22:26:37Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Yeah, nobody else has freedom of speech. > > Also, the constitution says we have to have these debates about mass shootings, and can’t actually pass an amendment that would change gun laws. Yes, Europe has no freedom of speech. As evidenced by journalists facing jail for writing books on inconvenient subjects. And the Constitution says you can have the debate and you can try to pass any amendment you want. Good luck trying to repeal the 2nd. You will not succeed. Any attempt will be roundly defeated, without even trying very hard. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/166 "2012-12-14T22:27:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Won’t somebody please think of the paper towel rolls? Life was so much rosier back when you could anally rape a kid and not have the world all up in your business about it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/167 "2012-12-14T22:28:16Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > Life was so much rosier back when you could anally rape a kid and not have the world all up in your business about it. It’s hardly worth ruining football season over. I mean statistically it’s insignificant. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/168 "2012-12-14T22:29:03Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Assuming a “perfectly enforced ban” I think you’d need to ban all rifles other than single shot rifles, and all pistols other than revolvers. You would need to criminalize ownership of revolver autoloaders, and perhaps even mandate revolvers be double-action. That would make it difficult to get a high rate of fire, and would make it easier for unarmed people acting in concert to disarm the shooter. I’m cool with this. Let’s try it. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/169 "2012-12-14T22:29:12Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Nothing can be done without infringing upon the rights of others. > > If you wish to live in a free society, you must be willing to put up with a certain amount of shit. If you cannot or will not tolerate a certain amount of shit, you should seek citizenship in a society that enacts laws that minimize the chance of shit occurring (at the expense of curtailed liberties, of course). > > You can’t have freedom _and_ security. The more you have of one, the less you have of the other. Hey look, Crafter\_Man even wrote an article about it: [Right To Own Handheld Device That Shoots Deadly Metal Pellets At High Speed Worth All Of This](http://www.theonion.com/articles/right-to-own-handheld-device-that-shoots-deadly-me,30742/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=standard-post%3Aheadline%3Adefault) ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/170 "2012-12-14T22:32:55Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > In the UK you can essentially own a shotgun if you jump through a lot of hoops, in certain areas, but otherwise you have gun bans. I have 2 rifles that suggest otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/171 "2012-12-14T22:34:04Z")
If I get shot to death you have my permission to discuss gun control immediately and for as long as you want. I won’t get offended. ---
**Author:** ![Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a587f6/32.png) [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lago_Ys-Transform)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/172 "2012-12-14T22:34:53Z")
Hey, Chefguy, are you paying attention? > [@Terr](#): > > And the Constitution says you can have the debate and you can try to pass any amendment you want. Good luck trying to repeal the 2nd. You will not succeed. Any attempt will be roundly defeated, without even trying very hard. **This** is what I find offensive. Crafter\_Man’s position? Is at its core a reasonable debate to have. I can debate a statement of ‘this makes me and a lot of people really happy even though it kills people’. This crap is akin to ‘you’re never going to have an honest cost-analysis because of this slip of paper some slave-fucking aristocrats wrote 250 years ago, nyah nyah’ and is poisonous to public debate. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/173 "2012-12-14T22:35:32Z")
Okay, **Hentor** , I spent a half hour looking for that particular bit of info and couldn’t find it. I give up. Move on with your next stage of arguments. Does it actually matter? We’ve had two dozen studies of the issue, some peer reviewed in major academic journals, that put the number between 108k-5m. The fact that I can’t find the source of funding for one that came up with a 250k number is pretty much irrelevant in all this, unless you think that all of those studies are lies created by gun rights advocate propoganda. I can find more cites of peer reviewers who were inclined to believe that DGU numbers were inflated but were convinced by the methodology if you’d like, I already linked to one. So let’s see if you have anything more than pedantic nitpicking, please proceed governor. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/174 "2012-12-14T22:38:47Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > Life was so much rosier back when you could anally rape a kid and not have the world all up in your business about it. And kids’ buttholes were at _just_ the right height. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/175 "2012-12-14T22:38:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It’s called the Constitution. A foreign concept for the other side of the pond, with its freedom of speech, and the second amendment. Holy fuck you’re a retard. Only the fucking Second Half of The Second Amendment keeps freedom of speech alive. No free speech in the UK, France, Germany, Scandinavia, etc? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/176 "2012-12-14T22:39:17Z")
> [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](#): > > **This** is what I find offensive. Crafter\_Man’s position? Is at its core a reasonable debate to have. I can debate a statement of ‘this makes me and a lot of people really happy even though it kills people’. > > This crap is akin to ‘you’re never going to have an honest cost-analysis because of this slip of paper some slave-fucking aristocrats wrote 250 years ago, nyah nyah’ and is poisonous to public debate. It is not because of what was written 250 years ago. You will not repeal the 2nd because the majority of citizens in US doesn’t want it repealed. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/177 "2012-12-14T22:41:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It is not because of what was written 250 years ago. You will not repeal the 2nd because the majority of citizens in US doesn’t want it repealed. If shit like this keeps up, that will change. We may not read a repeal, just replace the Supreme Court justices that fucked up royally with Heller. Since we’ve seen the last Republican president in our lifetimes, that’s a likelier route. ---
**Author:** ![Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a587f6/32.png) [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lago_Ys-Transform)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/178 "2012-12-14T22:43:32Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It is not because of what was written 250 years ago. You will not repeal the 2nd because the majority of citizens in US doesn’t want it repealed. As far as US politics are concerned, these sentences contradict each other in a subtle way. Especially when you consider that ‘majority’ is an equivocation and ‘doesn’t want it repealed’ is an even bigger one. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/179 "2012-12-14T22:44:55Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s probably too late to inject a note of sanity into this discussion, but surely it is obvious that there’s far more at play here than gun laws? > > The USA does have a problem with gun violence and gun fetishism, I’d agree. But that doesn’t entirely explain why it has such a jarringly high crime rate as opposed to other rich countries. I think it obvious that if you want to reduce these sorts of things there are many other issues that need to be looked into. Stigmatization of mental and psychological illness is something that is long overdue to be addressed, and that remains a huge public health problem. You’ve got other crime-related problems as well, that might not apply to this particular incident but that affect crime rates in general; the USA is incarcerating insane numbers of people for no clear public good, the population and the media thatserves it seems at time to be almost wholly mptivated by fear and suspicion, the government is engaged in a war on drugs that accomplishes nothing, and I won’t even get into systemic racism. (And make no mistake, Canada has similar problems. I ain’t playing olier-than-thou.) > > A serious discussion of America’s crime problem isn’t\*\* just \*\*about guns. It might not even be mostly about guns. A voice of sanity. Thank you for posting this. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050/180 "2012-12-14T22:45:19Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > No free speech in the UK, France, Germany, Scandinavia, etc? Correct. David Irving (Holocaust-denying scum who is still entitled to freedom of speech, IMO) in jail in Austria because of his speech. Oriana Fallacci facing jail in Italy because of her opinions. Geert Wilders on trial in Holland because of his speech. Journalist Eric Zemmour’s on trial in France because of the opinions he published. etc. etc. etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/27-dead-18-children/644050.md?page=10)