# 2nd Democratic Debate 11/14/15 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 13, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2nd-democratic-debate-11-14-15/737481 "2015-11-13T17:46:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2nd-democratic-debate-11-14-15/737481/21 "2015-11-15T02:57:07Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I’m voting for the Clintons, and was happy to see Hillary at least use the term “jihadism” and “Islamists” that Obama won’t even use. But quit giving the GOP a talking point: call it “Islamic Terrorism” already. Do you get this annoyed when people don’t refer to gay-bashing and trans-bashing as “Christian Terrorism”? ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2nd-democratic-debate-11-14-15/737481/22 "2015-11-15T03:16:12Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Do you get this annoyed when people don’t refer to gay-bashing and trans-bashing as “Christian Terrorism”? The indisputable fact is that more attacks in more places with more casualties happen expressly in the name and cause of Islam than of other religions, today, in 2015, not 1115. There is a big difference between a violent act which a person who happens to be of a religion undertakes than people who undertake a violent act in the name and cause of a religion. We don’t see groups acting on behalf and in the cause of Christianity, Hinduism, Jainism, Judaism, etc. bombing shit and beheading people on video tape all around the globe. Therefore, “Islamic Terrorism” is apt. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2nd-democratic-debate-11-14-15/737481/23 "2015-11-15T03:41:45Z")
The astonishing thing (if you’ve been watching the Pub debates for comparison) is how they’re all acting like grownups. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2nd-democratic-debate-11-14-15/737481/24 "2015-11-15T03:42:47Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > What was that? “Immigration bashing loudmouth carnival freak Donald Trump”??? HAHAHAHA! O’Malley said "carnival **barker."** But, it works either way. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2nd-democratic-debate-11-14-15/737481/25 "2015-11-15T04:24:57Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > We don’t see groups acting on behalf and in the cause of Christianity, Hinduism, Jainism, Judaism, etc. bombing shit and beheading people on video tape all around the globe. Therefore, “Islamic Terrorism” is apt. If you don’t see that Christian fundamentalists have bombed abortion clinics or that Catholic school systems have driven gay teens to suicide due to institutionalized homophobia, then you haven’t been paying attention. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that many of the differences in the impacts of these religions have to do with the cultures in which they’re embedded. Christianity tends to prevail in more advanced western cultures and Islam in older and less enlightened ones. Are you overlooking the fact that cultural differences are at least as important as religious ones? I am no fan of Islam, but what do you think a term like “Islamic terrorism” does to the reputations of the vast majority of peaceful Muslims? It’s the kind of broad-brush prejudging that is the very essence of prejudice. I’ve only personally known about half a dozen Muslims, but every one of them was a sweet and gentle person, more so than most other people I know of any particular religion. What you claim is “apt” is to brand these people with the stigma of being terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2nd-democratic-debate-11-14-15/737481/26 "2015-11-15T10:12:49Z")
I thought they did OK. I don’t think anyone “won” or “lost.” Martin O’Malley leans a bit hard on having been a governor, but he’s mostly pretty convincing. But then, from the transcript, I thought the previous debate had no clear winners and losers, and two candidates just dropped out after that one. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2nd-democratic-debate-11-14-15/737481/27 "2015-11-15T15:15:07Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I thought they did OK. I don’t think anyone “won” or “lost.” Martin O’Malley leans a bit hard on having been a governor, but he’s mostly pretty convincing. > > But then, from the transcript, I thought the previous debate had no clear winners and losers, and two candidates just dropped out after that one. Well, I don’t think O’Malley’s dropping out any time soon; he has to cling the the possibility, however distant, that one of the other campaigns might somehow self-destruct. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2nd-democratic-debate-11-14-15/737481/28 "2015-11-15T19:14:48Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > If you don’t see that Christian fundamentalists have bombed abortion clinics or that Catholic school systems have driven gay teens to suicide due to institutionalized homophobia, then you haven’t been paying attention. Do you have any factual evidence that Catholic school systems drive gay teens to suicide due to institutionalized homophobia? I’ve seen anti-Catholic hatemongers make this claim many times, but never seen them provide any research to back it up. Generally, [religious teens have better mental health and are less likely to attempt suicide than the non-religious](http://www.jstor.org/stable/3512217?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents), and generally [suicide rates are lower among the religious](http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.161.12.2303). [This study](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3280202/) finds that suicide rates are lower than average for Catholics attending Catholic school, higher than average for non-Catholics attending Catholic school but not significantly so. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2nd-democratic-debate-11-14-15/737481/29 "2015-11-15T19:45:53Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > If you don’t see that Christian fundamentalists have bombed abortion clinics or that Catholic school systems have driven gay teens to suicide due to institutionalized homophobia, then you haven’t been paying attention. > > You also seem to be ignoring the fact that many of the differences in the impacts of these religions have to do with the cultures in which they’re embedded. Christianity tends to prevail in more advanced western cultures and Islam in older and less enlightened ones. Are you overlooking the fact that cultural differences are at least as important as religious ones? How often do abortion clinic bombings occur? How many inhabited continents do they frequently occur in? How many big countries and territories do these types control? I understand not wanting to be unfair, but you also can’t make false equivalences that compare apples to pecans. A spade=a spade. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2nd-democratic-debate-11-14-15/737481/30 "2015-11-15T19:45:57Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Do you have any factual evidence that Catholic school systems drive gay teens to suicide due to institutionalized homophobia? I’ve seen anti-Catholic hatemongers make this claim many times, but never seen them provide any research to back it up. > > Generally, [religious teens have better mental health and are less likely to attempt suicide than the non-religious](http://www.jstor.org/stable/3512217?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents), and generally [suicide rates are lower among the religious](http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.161.12.2303). [This study](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3280202/) finds that suicide rates are lower than average for Catholics attending Catholic school, **higher than average for non-Catholics attending Catholic school but not significantly so.** None of which mentions sexual orientation. Your third link states a 2-4 times higher rate for non-Catholics attending Catholic schools. > [@](#): > > While holding Catholic religious beliefs was protective, attending a Catholic school was a risk factor for suicidal behaviours. This pattern was explained by religious ‘mismatch’: **pupils of a different religion from their school were approximately 2-4 times more likely to attempt suicide, be a suicide-risk or self-harm.** ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2nd-democratic-debate-11-14-15/737481/31 "2015-11-15T22:21:09Z")
Some particular points that I found of significance in the debate: Hillary giving props to GWBush for his “we are not at war with Islam” speech. Sanders comment about how he is not in favor of regime change and unintended consequences. Which does imply a United States preferring to deal with a strongman brutal regime rather than risk instability and the unknown. Not sure what I think or feel about that. Bernie on tax rates stating “not that much a socialist compared to Eisenhower” Overall though I am again more comfortable with Bernie than I was previously even though I still prefer HRC. And if he was nominated I believe he could win. ---
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2nd-democratic-debate-11-14-15/737481/32 "2015-11-15T23:48:26Z")
The part that stood out the most to me was when Clinton answered the Wall Street donor question with “9/11”. And the fact the crowd seemed to eat it up. I’m still not even sure what she was trying to say. That they are just giving her money for helping them rebuild 14 years ago? ---
**Author:** ![MacTech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MacTech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacTech)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2nd-democratic-debate-11-14-15/737481/33 "2015-11-16T00:53:44Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > O’Malley’s got more than one heart! Ah, the Irish… 😃 So, does that mean his podium is actually his TARDIS? I thought Galifreyans, being non-human, weren’t permitted to hold political office… ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2nd-democratic-debate-11-14-15/737481/34 "2015-11-16T00:58:29Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Some particular points that I found of significance in the debate: > > Hillary giving props to GWBush for his “we are not at war with Islam” speech. Dubya was of course the worst President of my lifetime, and by no small margin. But the current crop of GOP Presidential candidates are working hard on making him look good, aren’t they? And this is one of the particulars. GWB didn’t just say this once, he said it a good number of times: that Islam is not the enemy. And this was one thing he did right. I wonder if any of the current GOP candidates would go there. Hillary was smart to cite Dubya on this point. > [@](#): > > Sanders comment about how he is not in favor of regime change and unintended consequences. Which does imply a United States preferring to deal with a strongman brutal regime rather than risk instability and the unknown. Not sure what I think or feel about that. The past century has produced a number of exceptions to Hobbes’ dictum that even the worst dictator is better than anarchy: Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot for starters. But post-Saddam Iraq lays down a marker for just how vile a dictator can be, yet still be preferable to a failed state. In situations where there is an alternative with legitimacy and popular support, for instance if the military of a country steps in and refuses to allow the winner of a democratic election to take office, then there is a good argument that we can get in, install the legitimate head of state, and get out again, without making a mess of things. But outside of exceptions of a similar nature, I’m in Hobbes’ and Sanders’ corner: we can always make things worse by intervening - hell, that’s the way to bet. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2nd-democratic-debate-11-14-15/737481/35 "2015-11-16T01:25:02Z")
> [@MacTech](#): > > So, does that mean his podium is actually his TARDIS? > > I thought Galifreyans, being non-human, weren’t permitted to hold political office… Haven’t watched much lately eh. He was President of the World there for a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2nd-democratic-debate-11-14-15/737481/36 "2015-11-16T01:31:09Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Bernie on tax rates stating “not that much a socialist compared to Eisenhower” [It’s possible Sanders, who was born in 1941, remembers when William F Buckley, Jr and Barry Goldwater helped kick the John Birch Society out of the GOP for saying Eisenhower was a Communist sympathizer](https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/goldwater-the-john-birch-society-and-me/): > [@Buckley](#): > > How can the John Birch Society be an effective political instrument while it is led by a man whose views on current affairs are, at so many critical points . . . so far removed from common sense? That dilemma weighs on conservatives across America. . . . The underlying problem is whether conservatives can continue to acquiesce quietly in a rendition of the causes of the decline of the Republic and the entire Western world which is false, and, besides that, crucially different in practical emphasis from their own. ([citation for date](https://sites.google.com/site/ernie1241b/)) I’m probably more of a history wonk than anyone else. The least hypothesis is that Ike is a convenient Solid Conservative who presided over a government with a high marginal tax rate on the top bracket. He was allowed to: That was before Reagan Christ and Norquist of Tarsus and the dogma of Starve The Beast. Still, it’s a neat little historical in-joke to connect Sanders to Goldwater like that. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2nd-democratic-debate-11-14-15/737481/37 "2015-11-16T02:04:10Z")
> [@emcee2k](#): > > The part that stood out the most to me was when Clinton answered the Wall Street donor question with “9/11”. And the fact the crowd seemed to eat it up. > > I’m still not even sure what she was trying to say. That they are just giving her money for helping them rebuild 14 years ago? The Twitter follow up to her response was appropriate. That was a bad play on her part, fortunately her opponents on the stage weren’t willing to pounce. ---
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2nd-democratic-debate-11-14-15/737481/38 "2015-11-16T02:22:32Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > The Twitter follow up to her response was appropriate. That was a bad play on her part, fortunately her opponents on the stage weren’t willing to pounce. Normally the social media integration on these things is just a pointless distraction, but that Twitter response made the point that someone actually in the room should have already made. Either one of here opponents or a moderator. Unfortunately she just responded by repeating basically the same thing, and they moved on. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2nd-democratic-debate-11-14-15/737481/39 "2015-11-16T02:30:24Z")
> [@MacTech](#): > > So, does that mean his podium is actually his TARDIS? > > I thought Galifreyans, being non-human, weren’t permitted to hold political office… Well, that’s not actually in the Constitution – and how do we know The Doctor wasn’t born in the United States? (With his resources, he can always arrange to have been. ;)) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2nd-democratic-debate-11-14-15/737481/40 "2015-11-16T02:42:23Z")
[Transcript of the 11/14/15 debate.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/11/14/the-cbs-democratic-debate-transcript-with-insight-from-the-fix/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2nd-democratic-debate-11-14-15/737481.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2nd-democratic-debate-11-14-15/737481.md?page=3)