# 3-15 Dem Debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 16, 2020, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552 "2020-03-16T00:04:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/81 "2020-03-16T03:21:02Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I remember a lot of voters - young voters in particular - who voted for hope and change, got change, and…sat out during the mid-terms. And we’ve been dealing with Mitch McConnell ever since. > > Presidents can’t change the world by themselves, and their fanboy supporters have to understand that and live in that world, not Sim City. > [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > I remember Obama using all his political capital to get the ACA passed by a total of five votes in the House, and with Joe Lieberman and Ben Nelson in the Senate threatening to vote against it unless it was watered down. For his efforts, the Republicans won a majority of the House in 2010, and enough seats in the Senate to block anything the Democrats could pass. Yeah, the “moderate” Democrats running away from ACA and Obama as if they’d never heard of his platform did not save their skins in 2010. Might as well have gone hard for a fullthroated ACA and would have lost just the same while accomplishing _more_. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > One place Clinton lost in 2016 was tell coal miners she would start re-training programs so they could get jobs installing wind mills and solar and what not. > > Trump told them he’d save their jobs. They voted Trump. > > And then Trump did not save their jobs and they are screwed. > > I’d bet Sanders would work to find a road to other employment for fracking workers. It’s not really his style to just kick people to the curb. > > Yet people keep voting for the people who do kick them to the curb because they tell them a comfortable lie. Well… Here are what HRC’s words were: > [@](#): > > \*\*So for example, I’m the only candidate which has a policy about how to bring economic opportunity using clean renewable energy as the key into coal country. > > Because we’re going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business, right, Tim? And we’re going to make it clear that we don’t want to forget those people. Those people labored in those mines for generations, losing their health, often losing their lives to turn on our lights and power our factories. > > Now we’ve got to move away from coal and all the other fossil fuels, but I don’t want to move away from the people who did the best they could to produce the energy that we relied on.\*\* The audience **flat cold stopped listening** at “right, Tim”. These people understand being put out of business, they don’t understand going into a different one: _for them “coal miner” or “oil field crew” is part of their **identity** _ and saying you’ll stop being one is viewed as an attack. Outside the big city limits, the perception that you are being told “change who you are” is quite unwelcome. When that audience heard _“we’re going to provide programs to prepare you for jobs in green energy”_, they heard _“we’re going to make you become someone else and try your luck and see if you even get into some entry level job in some newfangled thing that you don’t understand, run by nerds”_. So they bet on the one who mendaciously assured them “you won’t have to change anything and I’ll make sure you come out all right”. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/82 "2020-03-16T03:28:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Biden just committed to a woman VP! He did so in such a way that it seemed like a spontaneous, defensive, ass-covering maneuver under the pressure of the moderator’s question. Not a good look, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/83 "2020-03-16T03:45:10Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > The audience **flat cold stopped listening** at “right, Tim”. These people understand being put out of business, they don’t understand going into a different one: _for them “coal miner” or “oil field crew” is part of their **identity** _ and saying you’ll stop being one is viewed as an attack. Outside the big city limits, the perception that you are being told “change who you are” is quite unwelcome. > > When that audience heard _“we’re going to provide programs to prepare you for jobs in green energy”_, they heard _“we’re going to make you become someone else and try your luck and see if you even get into some entry level job in some newfangled thing that you don’t understand, run by nerds”_. So they bet on the one who mendaciously assured them “you won’t have to change anything and I’ll make sure you come out all right”. Yeah…and they are fucked because they could not see past doing only one thing. In the past there used to be elevator operators. People who literally ran an elevator up and down. Imagine a candidate telling them that the new, automatic elevators are coming and they need to re-train into a different job. Candidate-B says, “Nah, I will fight for your jobs and stop those automatic menaces!” So they all vote Candidate-B but guess what? Candidate-B could never save their jobs. The new tech comes in and they are all out a job and there is no safety net in place and they are screwed. But hey! At least Candidate-B got that they were elevator people who never wanted to be anything else right? Give me a break. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/84 "2020-03-16T03:50:17Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > I’d bet my next paycheck Biden and Kamala already made a deal for VP. You think he is going to pick the woman who called him a racist at the first debate? Really? I would have thunk that Warren, Klobuchar, or even Abrams would be a better choice. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/85 "2020-03-16T03:56:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You think he is going to pick the woman who called him a racist at the first debate? > > Really? I would have thunk that Warren, Klobuchar, or even Abrams would be a better choice. Well, she endorsed him didn’t she? Politicians talk shit in the debates. This is nothing new. I agree Amy would be good as well. But Kamala is black AND a woman. So she might be a bigger draw. That, and she’s got a salty tongue just like Joe. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/86 "2020-03-16T04:17:13Z")
Michelle Lujan Grisham, governor of NM, might be a possibility too. I’ve seen a few people mention her elsewhere online, but I admittedly don’t know much about her beyond what Wikipedia tells me. She’s a Latina, which may help with Biden’s “Latin problem.” And picking her wouldn’t affect the Senate numbers at all. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/87 "2020-03-16T05:44:12Z")
Not gonna be Harris. Biden doesn’t need to draw black voters or California. He already has both. He needs the Midwest/Rust Belt. It’s going to be Klobuchar. Bank on it. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/88 "2020-03-16T07:00:37Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Joe sounds strong. Quite coherent most of the time. This was my takeaway as well. And I fully acknowledge this wasn’t always true in the past. But for any reasonable person, this debate has to wipe away any serious claim that Biden has lost it mentally. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > > I would be very surprised if Biden’s staff didn’t drive home with Biden to just chill and get through this. He does not need to win, he just needs to not screw it up and so far he is doing exactly that. > > > > Personally I think Sanders needed to drag out Biden’s past legislative record and have him answer for it but, for whatever reason, Sanders is not going there. > > There was an article somewhere (don’t recall where) that talked about how Sanders’ advisors are begging him to go very negative against Biden, but he’s refusing, for a very interesting reason – _he personally likes Biden_. This take didn’t age well. I did expect (and at least hope) that this was the way it was going to go down. Instead, Bernie just couldn’t help himself. Fucking asshole. > [@Boycott](#): > > Lou Dobbs used to be on CNN. Not a great rebuttal there from Biden. You seem to be missing the point. It was actually a great rebuttal, because it was what Bernie said to Dobbs–that he was a little skeptical about immigration because “they’re tak’n 'r jawbs!” Which is, as Biden noted, a Republican trope: > **[What Bernie told Lou Dobbs in 2007 about opposing the Kennedy-McCain...](https://www.vox.com/2016/2/12/10981234/bernie-sanders-lou-dobbs)** > > Guest workers are bad for wages. > [@](#): > > I don’t know why we need millions of people to be coming into this country as guest workers who will work for lower wages than American workers and drive wages down even lower than they are now. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes, that has weakened my argument that Sanders has more excitement behind him. I still prefer Sanders, but not as strongly as before. You deserve credit for acknowledging this. My 20 year old son, as diehard a Bernie supporter as you’ll ever meet, is realistic about this as well. He’s pretty disappointed in the vast majority of his generation that didn’t get out behind Bernie, even if the ones who did vote were overwhelmingly behind him on a percentage basis. > [@psychobunny](#): > > I watched this entire debate and am posting my opinion before reading anything else. Personally, I was worried about Biden before. I thought maybe his mental status was slipping. I thought the key tonight was not to win the debate but to appear Presidential, like someone you would want to have in charge in a time of crisis. Frankly, I think Biden killed it. I kept wishing he could take over tomorrow. While both he and Sanders appeared miles better than Trump, Sanders concentrated too much on his ultimate agenda. I liked how Biden was able to delineate what was needed immediately, in the short term and in the long term. I do not think he should have limited himself to a female VP but overall even though they both did well, I thought he did better and I ended up feeling much better about a potential Biden presidency. Whatever they gave him to revive him I want some. LOL, right? I said something similar to my wife: “Looks like they have finally managed to fine-tune whatever injections they are giving him so they’ve got the mix just right.” > [@Lamoral](#): > > He did so in such a way that it seemed like a spontaneous, defensive, ass-covering maneuver under the pressure of the moderator’s question. Not a good look, IMO. Whaaat? 😕 It sounded very firm and decisive to me, and I’d be willing to bet a lot of money it was decided on by him and his team well in advance of the debate as a way to make news. > [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Michelle Lujan Grisham, governor of NM, might be a possibility too. I’ve seen a few people mention her elsewhere online, but I admittedly don’t know much about her beyond what Wikipedia tells me. She’s a Latina, which may help with Biden’s “Latin problem.” And picking her wouldn’t affect the Senate numbers at all. This is my pick. In addition to being a Latina, I really like that she has both executive and congressional experience, an ideal combo to be ready to step into the job of president right away (this was something I liked a lot about Jay Inslee as well). But Kolak is right that it’s not a bad bet to predict Klobuchar. I’d be good with that too. Tammy Baldwin would also work. I don’t think it will be Harris or Abrams. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/89 "2020-03-16T07:39:55Z")
OMG, sick burn! (“Bern”?) > **[Biden and Sanders Fight Over Policy and Records in Head-to-Head Debate...](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/15/us/politics/biden-sanders-debate-recap.html)** > > With the coronavirus as a backdrop, and with no audience in attendance, the two Democrats were at times feisty discussing their differences over health care. Mr. Biden also committed to choosing a woman as a running mate. > [@](#): > > After the debate, Anita Dunn, Mr. Biden’s chief strategist, likened Mr. Sanders to a political demonstrator, saying the former vice president had spent the debate “graciously dealing with the kind of protester who often shows up at campaign events, on live television.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/90 "2020-03-16T09:54:44Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > This take didn’t age well. Are you kidding? They got a bit testy, but it was all on policy and record. And they both committed to all out supporting the other, should they win. That’s not the kind of attacks that the Bernie advisors wanted. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/91 "2020-03-16T10:50:33Z")
The most telling exchange, for me, was about Social Security. Bernie accused Joe of pushing to cut it (“cut” here also including “partly privatize”). Joe tried to explain to Bernie what it means to have something \*on the table \*during negotiations, but Bernie (though I love his ideas, and hes an important gadfly) doesn’t know “real legislating” from a hole in the wall. So, Joe was substantively better in that exchange…BUT Bernie produced a sound-bite that can be used to fool some folks into thinking that Joe is a threat to Social Security. WHY? What in earth was the point of Bernie doing this? What can ANYONE gain by tossing a few thousand critical votes among elderly Pennsylvanians (e.g.) away from the Democratic nominee? Push Joe a little on climate change or subsidized child care, maybe even TPP (though I disagree with that one), fine… but Social Security? What is this, 1997? How pointless and stupid. ---
**Author:** ![MortSahlFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@MortSahlFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MortSahlFan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/92 "2020-03-16T11:41:23Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Bernie’s right. If you want a guy that has always supported 2020 mainstream Dem positions, with the sole exception of the gun issue, he is your guy. Biden is a Johnny come lately. Biden seems to be against everything he was for a few days ago. And he seems to be for everything he was against until very recently. Bernie is the only chance to get rid of Trump. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/93 "2020-03-16T12:44:50Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > BUT Bernie produced a sound-bite that can be used to fool some folks into thinking that Joe is a threat to Social Security. WHY? What in earth was the point of Bernie doing this? What can ANYONE gain by tossing a few thousand critical votes among elderly Pennsylvanians (e.g.) away from the Democratic nominee? Push Joe a little on climate change or subsidized child care, maybe even TPP (though I disagree with that one), fine… but Social Security? What is this, 1997? How pointless and stupid. Because Bernie has a few narcissistic tendencies of his own. Don’t get me wrong - like you, I think Bernie’s an important gadfly. In fact I think Bernie and Joe are in a position to complement each other. But what should be clear is that Sanders would be a terrible president. Sanders is a movement guy, but he’s not an executive. People need to know the difference. People attack Biden for his attempts to reinvent himself, and to be real, I think the criticism is accurate: Biden was, at one time, a more conservative democrat than he is now. But that’s what I like about someone like Biden: he changes with the times. He understands that the party has shifted, particularly among younger voters. And what Sanders doesn’t get is that while the party has shifted, the party and indeed the country has a long way to go before it is ready to embrace the kinds of changes he seems committed to. I want the guy who can get shit done, not the guy who falls on his own sword and achieves nothing. The country, the world needs that. Sanders supporters poo poo the ACA, but guess what? It’s vastly better than what existed before and it made a real difference. Standing ground on a public option would have meant that absolutely nothing changed. The Paris accords: again, not perfect and well short of what we’d ultimately like to have, but far better than what existed before, and more to the point, it was the first meaningful global attempt to address the problem in an ambitious way. Yet it’s not clear what Sanders would propose other than ideas that would get his entire party thrown out of power within 2 years. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/94 "2020-03-16T13:07:47Z")
Amen. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/95 "2020-03-16T14:18:53Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You think he is going to pick the woman who called him a racist at the first debate? This didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/96 "2020-03-16T14:45:24Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > Not gonna be Harris. Biden doesn’t need to draw black voters or California. He already has both. He needs the Midwest/Rust Belt. Biden said that he’d (a) have a woman VP and (b) put a black woman on the Supreme Court. This suggests to me that (a) won’t be a black woman and (b) is intended to help soften that blow for people who were expecting Harris or Abrams. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/97 "2020-03-16T14:52:36Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > This didn’t happen. Of course she did. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/98 "2020-03-16T14:56:55Z")
Some people seem to think that any nuanced criticism regarding race is exactly the same as (and equivalent to) calling someone a racist. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/99 "2020-03-16T15:03:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Some people seem to think that any nuanced criticism regarding race is exactly the same as (and equivalent to) calling someone a racist. This. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/100 "2020-03-16T15:43:51Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > My problem is Biden’s history has not been very liberal and him telling us all the cool liberal things he will do when president doesn’t jibe well with the man he has been in politics for 30+ years. Nate Silver of 538 commented that Biden has been consistently around the median of the Democratic party over the years. So when the party shifted more conservative, so did he, and now that the party is shifting more liberal, so is he. Which is kind of reassuring for me as a liberal, since it suggests he isn’t going to revert to the politician he was in the '90s so long as the Democratic Party doesn’t go back to what it was in the '90s. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552.md?page=6)