# 3-15 Dem Debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 16, 2020, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552 "2020-03-16T00:04:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/101 "2020-03-16T16:26:34Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Yeah, the “moderate” Democrats running away from ACA and Obama as if they’d never heard of his platform did not save their skins in 2010. Might as well have gone hard for a fullthroated ACA and would have lost just the same while accomplishing _more_. Or Lieberman and Nelson wouldn’t have bent at all and there would be no ACA, period. Wishing doesn’t always make it so. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/102 "2020-03-16T16:49:34Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Because Bernie has a few narcissistic tendencies of his own. > > Don’t get me wrong - like you, I think Bernie’s an important gadfly. In fact I think Bernie and Joe are in a position to complement each other. But what should be clear is that Sanders would be a terrible president. Sanders is a movement guy, but he’s not an executive. People need to know the difference. > > People attack Biden for his attempts to reinvent himself, and to be real, I think the criticism is accurate: Biden was, at one time, a more conservative democrat than he is now. But that’s what I like about someone like Biden: he changes with the times. He understands that the party has shifted, particularly among younger voters. > > And what Sanders doesn’t get is that while the party has shifted, the party and indeed the country has a long way to go before it is ready to embrace the kinds of changes he seems committed to. I want the guy who can get shit done, not the guy who falls on his own sword and achieves nothing. The country, the world needs that. > > Sanders supporters poo poo the ACA, but guess what? It’s vastly better than what existed before and it made a real difference. Standing ground on a public option would have meant that absolutely nothing changed. > > The Paris accords: again, not perfect and well short of what we’d ultimately like to have, but far better than what existed before, and more to the point, it was the first meaningful global attempt to address the problem in an ambitious way. Yet it’s not clear what Sanders would propose other than ideas that would get his entire party thrown out of power within 2 years. Well said. > [@tim314](#): > > Nate Silver of 538 commented that Biden has been consistently around the median of the Democratic party over the years. **So when the party shifted more conservative, so did he, and now that the party is shifting more liberal, so is he.** > > Which is kind of reassuring for me as a liberal, since it suggests he isn’t going to revert to the politician he was in the '90s so long as the Democratic Party doesn’t go back to what it was in the '90s. Good politicians always do this. It’s the only way to actually get things done. You have to work within the confines of the politics of the moment and make allowances for people who think in ways very different from you. Since Biden has been on the front lines of this for decades, his compromises are more obvious than any made by a Vermont senator who simply sits on the sidelines flinging spitballs, confident in the luxury of never needing to compromise on anything. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/103 "2020-03-16T17:24:51Z")
Right. George Washington was once a general…_for the redcoats._ ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/104 "2020-03-16T18:37:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Some people seem to think that any nuanced criticism regarding race is exactly the same as (and equivalent to) calling someone a racist. Oh, nuanced. So he spoke at Strom Thurmond’s funeral. What sort of “nuance” was there besides to call him a racist? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/105 "2020-03-16T18:44:13Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Oh, nuanced. So he spoke at Strom Thurmond’s funeral. What sort of “nuance” was there besides to call him a racist? Bullshit. She didn’t call him racist. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/106 "2020-03-16T18:58:42Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Oh, nuanced. So he spoke at Strom Thurmond’s funeral. What sort of “nuance” was there besides to call him a racist? Look, I’ve been one of the biggest Biden bashers here, although at this point I’ve accepted that he’s going to be our guy. Whatever happened at Strom Thurmond’s funeral is for all intents and purposes irrelevant right at this moment. Biden has been able to make alliances with important black leaders and generate the support among that community that is crucial. Thurmond died in 2003. 2003 might as well be 1803, so much since then has changed. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/107 "2020-03-16T19:06:29Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Oh, nuanced. So he spoke at Strom Thurmond’s funeral. What sort of “nuance” was there besides to call him a racist? Look, I’ve been one of the biggest Biden bashers here, although at this point I’ve accepted that he’s going to be our guy. Whatever happened at Strom Thurmond’s funeral is for all intents and purposes irrelevant right at this moment. Biden has been able to make alliances with important black leaders and generate the support among that community that is crucial. Thurmond died in 2003. 2003 might as well be 1803, so much since then has changed. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/108 "2020-03-16T19:07:01Z")
> [@Biden's Running Mate Prediction Thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bidens-running-mate-prediction-thread/849482/78): > > It’s Abrams or Harris. I doubt there is anyone else under serious consideration. I’m equally certain it will be neither, and here’s why: Biden made a specific point to state right at the point of his big reveal that he will appoint a black female to the SCOTUS if he gets the chance. He made this clear so when he picks a white female running mate, the black women in the Democratic caucus, who are the backbone of the party, understand he fully recognizes their importance – but it won’t be with a VP pick. Smart. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/109 "2020-03-16T19:15:29Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Oh, nuanced. So he spoke at Strom Thurmond’s funeral. What sort of “nuance” was there besides to call him a racist? That perhaps unreformed white supremacists shouldn’t have been normalized and celebrated. Thurmond never fully renounced his earlier white supremacist views. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/110 "2020-03-16T19:36:30Z")
This is ridiculous. Not only did she not call him racist, she also went out of her way to explicitly say she didn’t think he was racist so there could be no doubt about it. > [@](#): > > OK. So on the issue of race, I couldn’t agree more that this is an issue that is still not being talked about truthfully and honestly. I – there is not a black man I know, be he a relative, a friend or a coworker, who has not been the subject of some form of profiling or discrimination.Growing up, my sister and I had to deal with the neighbor who told us her parents couldn’t play with us because she – because we were black. And I will say also that – that, in this campaign, we have also heard – and **I’m going to now direct this at Vice President Biden, I do not believe you are a racist** , and I agree with you when you commit yourself to the importance of finding common ground. > > But I also believe, and it’s personal – and I was actually very – it was hurtful to hear you talk about the reputations of two United States senators who built their reputations and career on the segregation of race in this country. And it was not only that, but you also worked with them to oppose busing. She said the exact opposite of what you are claiming. It’s right there in the transcript. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/111 "2020-03-16T19:36:59Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I’m equally certain it will be neither, and here’s why: Biden made a specific point to state right at the point of his big reveal that he will appoint a black female to the SCOTUS if he gets the chance. He made this clear so when he picks a white female running mate, the black women in the Democratic caucus, who are the backbone of the party, understand he fully recognizes their importance – but it won’t be with a VP pick. > > Smart. And a SCOTUS appointment would be more significant/longer lasting effect. Some might think the VP slot would potentially launch that person into the Presidency, but that really doesn’t work any more - if it ever did. HW Bush got a single term, but otherwise the sitting Veep doesn’t really move up (Ford, Humphrey, Nixon all lost - LBJ won an election, but special circumstances). I guess Biden would be a bit of an exception if/when he wins (except for sitting out the last election (and the Nixon precedent)), and that he’ll likely only serve one term might help whoever is Veep to have a better shot at taking over. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/112 "2020-03-16T19:58:15Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > And a SCOTUS appointment would be more significant/longer lasting effect. > > Some might think the VP slot would potentially launch that person into the Presidency, but that really doesn’t work any more - if it ever did. HW Bush got a single term, but otherwise the sitting Veep doesn’t really move up (Ford, Humphrey, Nixon all lost - LBJ won an election, but special circumstances). I guess Biden would be a bit of an exception if/when he wins (except for sitting out the last election (and the Nixon precedent)), and that he’ll likely only serve one term might help whoever is Veep to have a better shot at taking over. Exactly. Harris’s skills and experience would be wasted as a vice president, especially when we have so many other talented women who will do the job most ably. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/113 "2020-03-16T20:16:26Z")
I think Harris might also be a fit for AG. Not only does she have the chops, but the epidemic of conservative heads assplodin’ would be beneficial to the body politic. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/114 "2020-03-16T22:37:11Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > I think Harris might also be a fit for AG. Not only does she have the chops, but the epidemic of conservative heads assplodin’ would be beneficial to the body politic. Possible, but I will bet she wont be Veep. ---
**Author:** ![Boycott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boycott/32/6741_2.png) [@Boycott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boycott)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/115 "2020-03-17T00:37:45Z")
If I’m Harris I’d rather be VP than AG. Being VP would be historic for one. It also allows an expansion of your work since you’ll be dealing on domestic policy agenda and foreign policy agenda. I don’t see the point in deciding to become a legislator after two decades of law enforcement positions in California only to return to law enforcement before your first senate re-election. She could have been an AG option without seeking a Senate seat but seeking it means she wanted a change in direction. And when the one guy who is higher up the totem pole to you is 77 years old then naturally the delegation of power will be even more greater. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/116 "2020-03-17T06:43:32Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Some might think the VP slot would potentially launch that person into the Presidency, but that really doesn’t work any more - if it ever did. HW Bush got a single term, but otherwise the sitting Veep doesn’t really move up (Ford, Humphrey, Nixon all lost - LBJ won an election, but special circumstances). I guess Biden would be a bit of an exception if/when he wins (except for sitting out the last election (and the Nixon precedent)), and that he’ll likely only serve one term might help whoever is Veep to have a better shot at taking over. I posted this list nearby. Of presidents’ previous political jobs we have: 15 Veeps (9 successions) 11 Governors 6 Senators 4 Generals 3 Cabinet Secretaries 2 Representatives 2 Ambassadors 1 President 1 no office The best way for a Veep to take office is for their predecessor to die or resign. I’ll group Veeps like this: Successors: Tyler finished WH Harrison’s one term. Fillmore finished Taylor’s one term. A.Johnson finished Lincoln’s second term. Arthur finished Garfield’s one term. T.Roosevelt finished McKinley’s second term and won on his own. Coolidge finished Harding’s first term and won on his own. Truman finished FD Roosevelt’s fourth term and won on his own. LB Johnson finished Kennedy’s one term and one on his own. Ford finished Nixon’s second term. Followers: One-term president John Adams was Washington’s VP. Two-termer Jefferson was Adams’ VP. One-termer Van Buren was Jackon’s VP. One-termer Taft was T.Roosevelt’s VP. One-termer GHW Bush was Reagan’s VP. Standalone: Nixon was Eisenhower’s VP and won two terms on his own. When Biden wins, he’ll be another Standalone. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/117 "2020-03-17T08:22:54Z")
So nobody is troubled with the idea that Biden has pledged to select a woman as his running mate and nominate a black woman to the Supreme Court? If any business in the country made a similar pledge (e.g. the next lawyer in this firm will be a black woman) it would be in violation of the law. He should select the best person for the job. If that happens to be a black woman or a white man, then that is who he should select. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/118 "2020-03-17T09:43:26Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > So nobody is troubled with the idea that Biden has pledged to select a woman as his running mate and nominate a black woman to the Supreme Court? If any business in the country made a similar pledge (e.g. the next lawyer in this firm will be a black woman) it would be in violation of the law. > > He should select the best person for the job. If that happens to be a black woman or a white man, then that is who he should select. The best person for VP now is a woman (so is the best for prez for that matter, but that was OBE). It’s ridiculous we haven’t had a woman on either position yet. Optics and perception is part of these most public of positions, and it’s entirely appropriate to pledge to try and rectify this. “The best person for the job”, for stuff like this, is just an excuse to always pick a white man. If you want to go outside the box, _you actually need to go outside the fucking box_. In other words, to get more diversity, you have to actually take positive action to get more diversity. It doesn’t happen in its own, because everyone is just human and has their own biases, whether they recognize it or not. And further, he might have already picked someone and he’s just giving us a hint. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/119 "2020-03-17T10:03:32Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > So nobody is troubled with the idea that Biden has pledged to select a woman as his running mate and nominate a black woman to the Supreme Court? It sounds positively reaganesque to me. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552/120 "2020-03-17T13:53:44Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > So nobody is troubled with the idea that Biden has pledged to select a woman as his running mate and nominate a black woman to the Supreme Court? If any business in the country made a similar pledge (e.g. the next lawyer in this firm will be a black woman) it would be in violation of the law. > > He should select the best person for the job. If that happens to be a black woman or a white man, then that is who he should select. Are you troubled by it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-15-dem-debate/849552.md?page=7)