# 3 Dead over snow shoveling dispute - PA **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 5, 2021, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269 "2021-02-05T15:52:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/181 "2021-02-11T14:35:34Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I think the Goys might have been so used to bullying Spaide that they simply couldn’t conceive of him as a threat to them even when he had a gun in his hand. IMO This summarizes their entire history. Up to and including the last shot into each of the Goys. To the very end they were each thinking “He can’t really be doing this; we’re the aggressive Winners here, not him!” ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/182 "2021-02-11T14:54:07Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I think the Goys might have been so used to bullying Spaide that they simply couldn’t conceive of him as a threat to them even when he had a gun in his hand. I tend to think you’re right about this. Obviously, we can’t know the whole history, but everything in that I see from the Goys reminds me of the dynamic between Scut Farkus and Ralphie in the Christmas Story - only in this version, Ralphie uses two real guns instead of two fists. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/183 "2021-02-11T15:03:26Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > As my grandfather used to say, “another great theory ruined by the facts.” > > The U.S.A. has been intervening forcefully around the world for eons now, but the change in the nature of gun culture from one of hunting deer and plunking tin cans, to one of owning weapons of mass slaughter, is something that happened somewhere around or since the end of the Cold War. Not to mention that the British, at the height of their world conquering empire, never had a culture of blasting one another in the face of prancing around with weapons of war in a civilian context. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/184 "2021-02-11T15:11:26Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I think the Goys might have been so used to bullying Spaide that they simply couldn’t conceive of him as a threat to them even when he had a gun in his hand. This reminds me of movies where a “weakling” has a gun drawn on a “tough guy” and the TG acts like it’s a balled up fist. I always find myself thinking, one nervous twitch (Pulp Fiction Car Ride Style) and you’ll have a hole punched in you somewhere, no matter how tough you are. ---
**Author:** ![FriendlyCurmudgeon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friendlycurmudgeon/32/5786_2.png) [@FriendlyCurmudgeon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendlyCurmudgeon)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/185 "2021-02-11T15:22:44Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Also, let’s put a stop to this “guns are a tool” crap. Guns are weapons. They were designed as weapons, they were built as weapons and their use is as a weapon. The fact that you go to the range to shoot your over expensive M4 ripoff so you can laugh about how you’d blow someone away, or sit on your trailer porch and shoot empty beer bottles does not mean your gun is not a weapon. You are not issued a concealed carry tool license. If you prop open your back door with a rifle, that does not make it a door stop. Guns are weapons, full stop. Richard Proenneke would disagree, not everyone is living in cities. My backyard has bears, coyotes and wolves it’s nice to know I have a tool at hand to deal with that if I have to. I also use it to feed myself. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/186 "2021-02-11T15:22:51Z")
This kind of reporting is actually one of my bug bears. Its sells papers to say “Man kills two because of X” where X is some trivial thing like “snow shoveling” (or “Playstation”, or “waiting too long at MacDonald’s”, etc.) But the trivial thing is NOT why two people are dead. They aren’t dead because of snow shoveling. Tou have a situation where someone is inclined to violence (for whatever reason) and access to weapons and got into a meaningless argument over some trivial and irrelevant thing, and because they are inclined to violence and have access to weapons two people are dead. The irrelevant thing is irrelevant the reason two people are dead is a violent person (presumably with anger/impulse control issues, but who knows) had instant access to a gun (in this case two separate guns) ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/187 "2021-02-11T15:30:11Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > > [@mordecaiB](#): > > > > You are not issued a concealed carry tool license. If you prop open your back door with a rifle, that does not make it a door stop. Guns are weapons, full stop. > > This. Right, I mean, fishing gear, surgical instruments, weapons, artists’ supplies, musical instruments, IT devices, baseball equipment, all **are** “tools”. But the specific **kind** of “tool” makes a difference and we should call things what they are in the context. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/188 "2021-02-11T15:45:04Z")
> [@FriendlyCurmudgeon](#): > > My backyard has bears, coyotes and wolves it’s nice to know I have a tool at hand to deal with that if I have to. I also use it to feed myself. I like knowing I have a tool at hand to change a flat tire. If 10,000 murders a year were committed by assailants with tire irons, and countless assaults, robberies, and other crimes enabled by tire irons, I think it would be reasonable to ask “can we do something about these murders, but still let people change their tires?” and “Maybe we have a tire iron problem in this country.” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/189 "2021-02-11T15:47:12Z")
> [@FriendlyCurmudgeon](#): > > My backyard has bears, coyotes and wolves it’s nice to know I have a tool at hand to deal with that if I have to. The fact that you’re using it as a weapon to kill or injure animals rather than humans doesn’t make it any less of a weapon. It may change how most of us feel about the _ethics_ of using it as a weapon in that context, but it’s still a weapon regardless. You’re using it to kill or injure. It’s a weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/190 "2021-02-11T15:49:40Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > This reminds me of movies where a “weakling” has a gun drawn on a “tough guy” and the TG acts like it’s a balled up fist. I I used to do A TON of martial arts, all aimed at practical streetfighting. Striking, grappling, knives. Competed NHB. One of the factors that encouraged me to stop (in addition to injuries) was guns. 1. there is no effective defense against a gun - especially if more than a couple of feet away. 2. If in a life or death situation, there is no self defense more effective than concealed carry. I’ve never understood the meme of, “You don’t have the guts to use that gun!” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/191 "2021-02-11T15:52:32Z")
> [@FriendlyCurmudgeon](#): > > My backyard has bears, coyotes and wolves it’s nice to know I have a tool at hand to deal with that if I have to. I also use it to feed myself. Yeah, you definitely need a semiautomatic rifle capable of firing dozens of rounds in rapid succession in case hordes of ravenous beasts descend upon your farmstead 🙄 If that was really what gun ownership was about, then no one would argue with banning handguns or AR15s. The UK has very reasonable rules allowing ownership only of sporting rifles and shotguns for hunting. If it was about hunting and protecting your property from wolves and bears, that would be MORE THAN sufficient. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/192 "2021-02-11T15:54:31Z")
> [@FriendlyCurmudgeon](#): > > My backyard has bears, coyotes and wolves And 30-50 feral hogs. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/193 "2021-02-11T15:55:02Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I like knowing I have a tool at hand to change a flat tire. If 10,000 murders a year were committed by assailants with tire irons, and countless assaults, robberies, and other crimes enabled by tire irons, I think it would be reasonable to ask “can we do something about these murders, but still let people change their tires?” and “Maybe we have a tire iron problem in this country.” The flip side is that guns **can** be used as tools. Suppose I wanted to punch a bunch of holes in a sheet of metal: I could load up a gun and shoot the sheet a bunch of times. So it’s possible to use the gun as a tool, but that’s not what it’s designed for, and such uses would be fairly rare, I’d expect. So we’ve got guns and tire irons. Both can be used as tools, and both can be used as weapons. But the tire iron is designed as a tool, and is almost exclusively used as a tool. The gun is designed as a weapon, and is almost exclusively used as a weapon. And in keeping with this, the gun is the item whose use we’ve got a real problem with in this country, not the tire iron. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/194 "2021-02-11T15:55:52Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > And 30-50 feral hogs. Flamethrower? 50-caliber machine gun? Tactical nuke? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/195 "2021-02-11T15:59:45Z")
M-134 Minigun. Turn them into Spam. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/196 "2021-02-11T16:00:49Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Yeah, you definitely need a semiautomatic rifle capable of firing dozens of rounds in rapid succession in case hordes of ravenous beasts descend upon your farmstead Aw c’mon, what about the [30-50 feral hogs](https://twitter.com/WillieMcNabb/status/1158045307562856448)? 😃 ETA: Damn, Ninja’d by Darren. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/197 "2021-02-11T16:05:18Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Aw c’mon, what about the [30-50 feral hogs](https://twitter.com/WillieMcNabb/status/1158045307562856448)? 😃 Fighting roving hordes of savage animals with automatic weapons doesn’t work- learn from Australia’s defeat in the Emu Wars. We need to provide all Americans with a barrel mounted grenade launcher for their sporting rifle for use in the event of a feral hog attack. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/198 "2021-02-11T16:20:08Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > And 30-50 feral hogs. Can’t believe that was just a year and a half ago. Between Trump and the pandemic, we’ve had a couple of powerful time distortion fields in action. ---
**Author:** ![FriendlyCurmudgeon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friendlycurmudgeon/32/5786_2.png) [@FriendlyCurmudgeon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendlyCurmudgeon)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/199 "2021-02-11T16:56:13Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Yeah, you definitely need a semiautomatic rifle capable of firing dozens of rounds in rapid succession in case hordes of ravenous beasts descend upon your farmstead The fact that you think that there is no use for semi-automatic rifles in a hunting situation tells me you’ve never hunted and don’t know much about it. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2021, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/200 "2021-02-11T17:36:15Z")
> [@FriendlyCurmudgeon](#): > > The fact that you think that there is no use for semi-automatic rifles in a hunting situation tells me you’ve never hunted and don’t know much about it Sure, it’s EASIER to hunt with a semiautomatic rifle that can put 12 bullets into a deer in half as many seconds. But that doesn’t outweigh the multitude of Americans killed by gun violence every year. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269.md?page=11)