# 3 Dead over snow shoveling dispute - PA **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 5, 2021, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269 "2021-02-05T15:52:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2021, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/21 "2021-02-06T21:29:40Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Which means it’s not so obvious that the Goys were bullying Spaide - maybe they were, or maybe Spaide started it years ago. Whatever the case in previous years, in this event the Goys were definitely the aggressors. They literally chase Spaide into his house, and the guy says “I’ll knock your head off your shoulders,” calls him a queer, and says “I’ll make your life a living hell.” Spaide looks like a child in comparison to Goy, who seems to be twice his size, and even his wife looks like she’s a head taller than him. So he had reason to feel physically threatened. Still, he shouldn’t have shot them, but called the cops. ---
**Author:** ![FriendlyCurmudgeon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friendlycurmudgeon/32/5786_2.png) [@FriendlyCurmudgeon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendlyCurmudgeon)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2021, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/22 "2021-02-06T21:41:38Z")
Yup, when he pulls the first gun it appears to amp them up, they approach him and keep the insults going and as you mentioned she says “go ahead” while she has her phone out to record. > [@Colibri](#): > > Even when he comes back out with the second gun she is still yelling (although it’s not clear what she is saying).These people were not just assholes, they were completely bonkers. Continuing to provoke someone who is pointing a gun at you is insane. The second time, after she’s been shot she’s says “oh my god, you fucker you” . ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2021, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/23 "2021-02-06T21:46:17Z")
> [@FriendlyCurmudgeon](#): > > The second time, after she’s been shot she’s says “oh my god, you fucker you” . Thanks, I couldn’t make it out. I would think “Please don’t kill me” would have been more effective. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2021, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/24 "2021-02-06T21:46:59Z")
My overall takeaway is that this is another example of how America’s gun culture needlessly led to three deaths. Spaide clearly had a mental hijacking: he was probably somewhat fearful, but fear can trigger different reactions in different people. Some who are afraid would have stayed in the house and called the police; Spaide somehow convinced himself that they were an existential threat that needed to be removed forever. Probably realizing that he was now a double murderer and that his days of living in the comforts of his home were over, soon to be replaced by a life in the jungle of prison, he turned his gun on himself to check out. Guns shape our culture. They shape how we think. There are things people will do when they have the confidence of possessing deadly force that they wouldn’t do if they didn’t have it at their fingertips. Guns make people more confident about ‘winning’ a confrontation, and thus, makes them more confrontational. And because they inflict death so quickly and so easily, they inflict so much damage before people have had a chance to think about the consequences of their actions. This was all so senseless, so unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2021, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/25 "2021-02-06T21:48:06Z")
Yup, imagine how the unfree people of Europe would be forced to deal with an issue like this. ---
**Author:** ![FriendlyCurmudgeon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friendlycurmudgeon/32/5786_2.png) [@FriendlyCurmudgeon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendlyCurmudgeon)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2021, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/26 "2021-02-06T23:36:01Z")
Guns are tools, I grew up in the sticks, my father taught me how to shoot when I was 12. Took the course and eventually got my PAL. I still hunt when I can. Because we lived in the sticks that means that police were 15 minutes away with lights flashing, longer during the winter. Until then we were on our own. Then my father eventually taught me at 16 that I could use these to protect our family if I had to if he wasn’t there and we had that talk. My father or I are not gun nuts, and he wasn’t political or cared about any of that. It’s just the way you lived in the county, and crime did visit from time to time, whether it was some townie out on their luck, or out of their mind or it could be just criminals passing through thinking they see an easy target, some nice little old house tucked away in the woods 1KM away from the highway on a hill. Some people know how to properly own them and justifiably use them as a tool if they have too, is all I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2021, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/27 "2021-02-06T23:41:37Z")
I agree that guns are tools, and I agree that guns are not in and of themselves to blame for all of our social ills. I personally believe in stronger firearms control, but I think it’s over-simplification to believe that it’s just guns alone that cause violence, and I worry that if we focus only on guns, we’ll conclude that gun laws don’t have any impact. I think what we consume online and in mass culture also influences how we think and behave. We could look at how we channel harmful information as well. If we lived in a society that didn’t make so many explicit and implicit connections between firearms and power/dominance/being a tough guy, we probably wouldn’t have so much gun violence. I guess what I’m saying is that guns are an undeniable part of that equation, as are the cultural influences. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2021, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/28 "2021-02-06T23:42:07Z")
You’re not missing much. And obligatory: > **[‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens](https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819580358)** > > LAS VEGAS—In the hours following a violent rampage in Las Vegas in which a lone attacker killed more than 50 individuals and seriously injured 400 others, citizens living in the only country where this kind of mass killing routinely occurs reportedly... ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2021, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/29 "2021-02-07T00:15:30Z")
> [@FriendlyCurmudgeon](#): > > I grew up in the sticks, my father taught me how to shoot when I was 12. Took the course and eventually got my PAL. I still hunt when I can. Because we lived in the sticks that means that police were 15 minutes away with lights flashing, longer during the winter. Until then we were on our own. These folks were in Plains Township on the edge of Wilkes-Barre. It’s clearly an urban area. They didn’t need handguns to protect themselves because they were isolated. Cops were probably a few minutes away. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2021, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/30 "2021-02-07T00:50:13Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > My overall takeaway is that this is another example of how America’s gun culture needlessly led to three deaths. Spaide clearly had a mental hijacking: he was probably somewhat fearful, but fear can trigger different reactions in different people. Some who are afraid would have stayed in the house and called the police; Spaide somehow convinced himself that they were an existential threat that needed to be removed forever. I’m sure Spaide’s rationale for having the guns was self-defense. In fact, he probably thought what he was doing was self-defense, since the Goys had physically threatened him and said they would continue to do so. Of course, once he was in the house he was safe and didn’t have to come out again. Maybe he just intended to intimidate the Goys into leaving him alone in the future but lost it when they continued to goad him.‘’ [This reference](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use-2/) contends that most purported instances of guns used for self defense are actually the result of escalating arguments, and that guns in the home are used far more often to intimidate other family members than to prevent crime. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2021, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/31 "2021-02-07T06:30:30Z")
Their original plan was to skip shoveling and just let the snow melt. But it wasn’t well thawed out. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2021, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/32 "2021-02-07T07:15:44Z")
> [@FriendlyCurmudgeon](#): > > The second time, after she’s been shot she’s says “oh my god, you fucker you” . “For the love of god, Montresor!” “Yes, for the love of god.” ---
**Author:** ![TimothyNewsome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7ba0ec/32.png) [@TimothyNewsome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimothyNewsome)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2021, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/33 "2021-02-07T13:47:07Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I would think “Please don’t kill me” would have been more effective. “Hey, let’s just everyone take a deep breath and calm down a little bit, before this thing really gets out of hand. Hmm, that’s odd, I can’t feel my legs…” ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2021, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/34 "2021-02-07T20:28:46Z")
I’m surprised the victims didn’t make an effort to retreat into their home after the shooter left to get the rifle. They continued yelling at him. That wouldn’t have been my reaction. Getting off that street was a priority. Give my wife and myself the best chance of survival. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2021, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/35 "2021-02-07T20:56:28Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’m surprised the victims didn’t make an effort to retreat into their home after the shooter left to get the rifle. There’s a scene in _True Grit_ where Mattie is holding a gun on a very unconcerned Tom Chaney, the man who murdered her father, and even exclaims in surprise, “I didn’t think you’d do it!” after she shoots him. In their minds, they had Spaide pegged as a weakling, someone they could bully, and I wouldn’t doubt it if they just didn’t believe he had it in him to pull the trigger. And we’ve probably all seen people with the tendency to dig in their heels and make the situation worse for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2021, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/36 "2021-02-07T20:56:45Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’m surprised the victims didn’t make an effort to retreat into their home after the shooter left to get the rifle. He fired at least 10 shots at them in the first round, using a pistol. While the available video doesn’t show what happened after they were shot, it sure sounds like they were down and didn’t have the option to retreat when he came back out with the rifle. > [@](#): > > They continued yelling at him. That wouldn’t have been my reaction. Getting off that street was a priority. Give my wife and myself the best chance of survival. These were not rational people. ---
**Author:** ![FriendlyCurmudgeon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friendlycurmudgeon/32/5786_2.png) [@FriendlyCurmudgeon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendlyCurmudgeon)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2021, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/37 "2021-02-07T21:05:10Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > He fired at least 10 shots at them in the first round, using a pistol. While the available video doesn’t show what happened after they were shot, it sure sounds like they were down and didn’t have the option to retreat when he came back out with the rifle. I heard agonal breathing after the first round of shots, whether it was from both or one of them I don’t know. But when you hear that, it’s usually a sign medically things aren’t going so well. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2021, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/38 "2021-02-07T21:27:16Z")
> [@FriendlyCurmudgeon](#): > > I heard agonal breathing after the first round of shots, whether it was from both or one of them I don’t know. But when you hear that, it’s usually a sign medically things aren’t going so well. After the first seven or eight shots, the woman can be heard shouting “I got a video,” and immediately after that her husband cries out in agony as she continues to yell. After Spaide comes back out there’s a lot of wailing, and as you mention she says “Oh my god you fucker you,” and a male voice says “fuck.” It’s possible some of the cries and the “fuck” could have been by witnesses. ---
**Author:** ![FriendlyCurmudgeon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friendlycurmudgeon/32/5786_2.png) [@FriendlyCurmudgeon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendlyCurmudgeon)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2021, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/39 "2021-02-07T22:03:49Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > and a male voice says “fuck.” It’s possible some of the cries and the “fuck” could have been by witnesses. That’s true, could have been from the witnesses. When they saw him coming back with a rifle their reaction was the right one - get the hell out of there. While it’s a tragedy all the way around, I really don’t feel sad for these people except for their son that no longer has parents. I “was” friends with a veteran who had to deal with PTSD from his time in Bosnia. In his heart he was a great person, but had a hard time with interpersonal relationships and could say some real cruel things to people, including me. He also had a real bad temper, when it came to fight or flight for him was always fight. I guess is you never know what a persons story is, and what they’re dealing with until you really get to know them. With my veteran friend, I tried to take his past into account but after a certain point self-preservation of self-esteem and dignity kicks in. When he threatened me, was when it was over. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2021, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/40 "2021-02-07T22:21:48Z")
Spaide was evidently a [decorated Navy Veteran](https://www.lawofficer.com/shooter-in-snow-shoveling-murder-suicide-was-a-decorated-navy-veteran/), with service in Southwest Asia. According to that site, the final confrontation went like this. > [@](#): > > Spaide is seen approaching his neighbors before shooting them. > > Footage then shows Spaide walking down his driveway toward them, to which the female neighbor responds, “Go ahead. Go ahead.” > > When it becomes clear that the man is holding a gun, James yells, “Put the gun down.” > > The man fires several rounds, striking the male neighbor, before shooting his wife. > > Footage shows James running back toward his house, while his wife falls to the ground in the middle of the street, where Spaide fires at her twice again. > > “Call the cops,” James shouts before the gunman chases and shoots him again. > > His wife, lying on the ground, then cries out, “You f–ker, you!” > > While others run over to help the couple, Spaide runs out with another, larger rifle. > > “You should have kept your f–king mouth [shut],” Spaide can be heard saying before shooting the woman again. > > Police said Spaide then went back inside his home and used a third rifle to kill himself, [The Post](https://nypost.com/2021/02/04/video-shows-snow-shoveling-fight-that-escalated-to-murder-suicide/) reported. So it looks like that James Goy tried to run back to the house after he was shot, but Spaide chased him and shot him again. It also sounds like neighbors came over before the final shots were fired. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269.md?page=3)