# 3 Dead over snow shoveling dispute - PA **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 5, 2021, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269 "2021-02-05T15:52:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/61 "2021-02-08T18:00:53Z")
> [@FriendlyCurmudgeon](#): > > There was some issues with the video, it appears as a delay with the sound not in sync with the video right before or as the shooting starts. Huh. I didn’t “study” it that close, but that would certainly explain a lot. Those 2 bumpkins just stand there motionless for the first six rounds. The later audio seemed to sync pretty well, when he brought out the heavy stuff. By the way, I’m following this so close because I’m always REALLY careful when running the snowblower and avoid sending all my snow right back into the neighbor’s freshly cleared driveway. Always thought carelessness in this regard from either of us could get ugly. He does a good job, too. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/62 "2021-02-08T18:06:17Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > My overall takeaway is that this is another example of how America’s gun culture needlessly led to three deaths. Spaide clearly had a mental hijacking: he was probably somewhat fearful, but fear can trigger different reactions in different people. Some who are afraid would have stayed in the house and called the police; Spaide somehow convinced himself that they were an existential threat that needed to be removed forever. > > Probably realizing that he was now a double murderer and that his days of living in the comforts of his home were over, soon to be replaced by a life in the jungle of prison, he turned his gun on himself to check out. > > Guns shape our culture. They shape how we think. There are things people will do when they have the confidence of possessing deadly force that they wouldn’t do if they didn’t have it at their fingertips. Guns make people more confident about ‘winning’ a confrontation, and thus, makes them more confrontational. And because they inflict death so quickly and so easily, they inflict so much damage before people have had a chance to think about the consequences of their actions. > > This was all so senseless, so unnecessary. This is such a great post that it deserves to be quoted in its entirety and posted again. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/63 "2021-02-08T18:18:52Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > This is such a great post that it deserves to be quoted in its entirety and posted again. True enough. But it should be added that this is _obvious_ to pretty much everyone in every nation outside the U.S. It’s bizarre that we live it a culture where it needs to be spelled out, and where many (most?) Americans still don’t accept it, or shrug it off and _favor_ a society like this. ---
**Author:** ![FriendlyCurmudgeon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friendlycurmudgeon/32/5786_2.png) [@FriendlyCurmudgeon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendlyCurmudgeon)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/64 "2021-02-08T18:29:08Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Huh. I didn’t “study” it that close, but that would certainly explain a lot I didn’t have to “study” it that closely. But It’s obvious a volley of shots no one is moving for a couple of seconds and then they react. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/65 "2021-02-08T18:41:57Z")
I agree, but after watching/listening more closely, I think the sound and picture sync. I think he really missed the first 6 near-point blank rounds. Astounding! And those two just stood there! ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/66 "2021-02-08T18:45:48Z")
Yes, it’s weird both that they don’t react to the many shots that miss by running - sheer disbelief that he could actually be shooting at them I guess - and that he apparently misses so many times at close range before a round finally hits the man and he recoils. Or is it possible in that situation to be shot and to actually feel nothing for a few seconds? I’ve read that people who have been stabbed often don’t realize it at first. Do you feel instant intense pain from a bullet wound? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/67 "2021-02-08T18:49:34Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > His Navy record doesn’t suggest he was a screwup. His Navy record also doesn’t suggest he was anything more than mediocre. A real Ashli Babbitt type. There’s also nothing that should suggest he would have been exposed to actual combat. There are, of course, some people who get PTSD in non-combat incidents, but then what’s much more common is that some milvets, like people in general, are just assholes. cf Ashli Babbitt. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/68 "2021-02-08T18:55:30Z")
I think trying to analyze his Navy career to discern if there was something peculiar about him is laughable. The only peculiar thing is that in the U.S., ordinary people who are experiencing the stresses and sometimes transient _rage_ that arise during the conflicts many normal people experience in normal life have immediate access to such a quick and easy tools to dole out instant death to others or to themselves in the heat of a brief moment. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/69 "2021-02-08T19:20:32Z")
> [@FriendlyCurmudgeon](#): > > There was some issues with the video, it appears as a delay with the sound not in sync with the video right before or as the shooting starts. As far as I can see, the video and sound are synced. Goy flinches but doesn’t otherwise react to the first six shots, which seem to have missed both of them. The seventh hits him, and he simultaneously crumples and begins to scream in agony. His wife incredibly keeps trying to video Spaide with her phone through the fusillade, even after her husband is hit, until she goes down with the eighth shot. It’s not clear if the ninth shot hit her or her husband. Goy runs toward his house, while his wife writhes on the ground, until Spaide comes over and shoots her twice more as she says “You fucker.” Spaide then pursues Goy to the front of his house, where he shoots him once more as he yells “Somebody call the cops!” By my count, Spaide fired 12 shots in the first encounter. The first six missed, the seventh hit Goy, the eighth hit his wife, and it’s unclear whether the ninth hit anybody. He then shot Goy’s wife twice and Goy once from a foot or two away when they were already down, then returned to his house. Goy’s wife was shot at least three times, and Goy twice. But both were still moving when Spaide returned to his house. When he came back out, he shot them both twice with his rifle. Goy’s wife still moved slightly for a minute or two then was still. Even after Spaide started shooting, the Goys might have survived if they had behaved normally and run for it instead of continuing to confront him. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/70 "2021-02-08T19:52:22Z")
I’m not gonna watch the video but I wonder if he was originally just trying to scare them? When they just stood there and continued to berate him he took it further and targeted them. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/71 "2021-02-08T20:27:20Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Even after Spaide started shooting, the Goys might have survived if they had behaved normally and run for it instead of continuing to confront him. What’s the normal way to be shot? Not to snark, but I honestly think you and others are perhaps assuming too much about how people react to sudden bursts of violence. One of the reasons police, for instance, are often seen to be so quick on the trigger (leading to so many unnecessary deaths of people who later turn out to be unarmed) is because they are taught that if they wait they risk ending up shot, dying, or dead before the threat fully registers in the way a “normal” person might perceive a threat. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/72 "2021-02-08T20:30:50Z")
It’s pretty clear he had bad intentions the entire time. The way he went and grabbed a second gun to finish them off as they were lying down on the icy cold concrete is just horrifying (I saw the original version, which has since been taken down). ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/73 "2021-02-08T20:51:59Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > ’s pretty clear he had bad intentions the entire time. The way he went and grabbed a second gun to finish them off as they were lying down on the icy cold concrete is just horrifying (I saw the original version, which has since been taken down). Or, after they reacted the normal way to someone ‘threatening’ them with a pistol, he finally shot them, then, realizing what he had done, he decided to shoot himself – which made him so pissed off at them and himself that he came back and killed them first. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/74 "2021-02-08T21:06:49Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > What’s the normal way to be shot? Not to snark, but I honestly think you and others are perhaps assuming too much about how people react to sudden bursts of violence. It’s certainly not to walk directly toward the shooter, as he is shooting in your direction, trying to video him with your phone, while shouting “Go ahead,” as Goy’s wife did. As the shots start, Goy flinches and turns away, turns back towards the shooter, turns away again, turns back, and then is shot. He’s well aware there’s danger but doesn’t hit the deck or run until he’s shot. You can’t watch the full video and think these are “normal” reactions. I can imagine if confronted with sudden violence many people would be too stunned to act, and freeze in their tracks, but this is not what was going on with the Goys. They reacted in exactly the wrong way. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/75 "2021-02-08T21:10:44Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > And the world is now short 3 a-holes. Sounds to me like the system worked! That couple had a child. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/76 "2021-02-08T21:13:21Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That couple had a child. That’s definitely the saddest part. The Goys had a 15-year-old autistic son who is now being cared for by his grandparents. As horrible as they acted toward Spaide, they could have been decent parents. And Spaide apparently had a good relationship with his family. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/77 "2021-02-08T21:33:03Z")
Some people just can’t back down. They always “Double down” when challenged. I suspect this had a lot to do with their history with Spaide. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/78 "2021-02-08T21:37:43Z")
We’ll never know for sure, but there’s some non-trivial chance that “Hey. Y’know what ? This is bullshit. Let’s go get a few beers and a burger. It’s on me.” might have drastically altered the ending of this thoroughly messed up story. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/79 "2021-02-08T21:47:33Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > He’s well aware there’s danger but doesn’t hit the deck or run until he’s shot. And he was sure a **Tough Guy** , talking shit till that first round landed. Then he ran like a bunny and was shrieking for someone to call the cops. The shooter got one thing right when he said, _“You should have kept your fucking mouth shut!”_ And do you guys call that ‘snow’ in Pennsylvania??? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/80 "2021-02-08T21:51:05Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Then he ran like a bunny and was shrieking for someone to call the cops. The only sensible thing he did. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269.md?page=5)