# 3 Dead over snow shoveling dispute - PA **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 5, 2021, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269 "2021-02-05T15:52:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/81 "2021-02-08T21:51:49Z")
Yep. Tragic all around. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/82 "2021-02-08T22:12:36Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > We’ll never know for sure, but there’s some non-trivial chance that > > “Hey. Y’know what ? This is bullshit. Let’s go get a few beers and a burger. It’s on me.” > > might have drastically altered the ending of this thoroughly messed up story. I suspect the time for that was a couple years ago. And was probably tried at the time. Some folks are just hell-bent on being intractable incorrigible problems. The Goys smell like that to me. ---
**Author:** ![FriendlyCurmudgeon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friendlycurmudgeon/32/5786_2.png) [@FriendlyCurmudgeon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendlyCurmudgeon)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/83 "2021-02-08T22:23:38Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I suspect the time for that was a couple years ago. And was probably tried at the time. > > Some folks are just hell-bent on being intractable incorrigible problems. The Goys smell like that to me. And apparently a month before this Spaide had called the police about some dispute with them. If I had nuts like that to deal with it I don’t know what I would do, I guess try talking to them with a peace offering, and if that didn’t work I’d take the crazy approach - as he’d be insulting me, I’d just drop my pants walking towards him mumbling “daddy ?” with the hopes he’d wave his arms and walk into his home. I’m lucky the only bad neighbour I had was the one guy below us where I use to live who everyone disliked because when he went to bed at 9PM he expected all of his neighbours to be quiet in a housing situation where that isn’t going to be possible until 11PM in the summer. He hated people sitting on their balconies in the summer time past 9PM chit chatting normally. He got so upset one night he slammed his window so hard it shattered. Ron was an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/84 "2021-02-08T22:43:57Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > As the shots start, Goy flinches and turns away, turns back towards the shooter, turns away again, turns back, and then is shot. He’s well aware there’s danger but doesn’t hit the deck or run until he’s shot. You can’t watch the full video and think these are “normal” reactions. I think you’re erroneously equating “sensible” with “normal.” Frankly, and in no way seeking to be pedantic, I have no idea how one would “normally” respond when shots are fired after a series of verbal exchanges and threats between people with an ongoing feud (and are perhaps used to empty threats). Partly because I have no idea what the victims here were or were not “aware” of. I have no idea how they interpreted the sensory data. Maybe they thought he was firing blanks because they didn’t notice they’d been shot at first. Maybe they were in shock. Maybe the audible “bang” didn’t quite register as “Oh fuck, he just shot (at) me” due to a combination of adrenaline and attenuated reaction time. Again, “sensible” and “normal” are not always synonymous. I have no idea how one “normally” responds to being shot in a situation like this. The only thing I’m reasonably confident in saying is that, were I to find myself in that situation (the ranting/raving/menacing man with the snow-shovel who is about to be or has been shot) at least some of the things I would do after would probably be less than sensible. Exhibit A being my own prior (not so sensible) conduct that got me into the situation. And to be clear, from the video I’ve seen (I saw the unedited video mentioned upthread), there’s not enough to conclude initially “who started it.” Not that it matters as the use of force by the suicide-murderer in this situation was clearly way out of proportion to what was proper given it’s not like they were following him into his home. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/85 "2021-02-09T01:26:21Z")
With all due respect, this all strikes me as a lot of handwaving to try to justify your initial response. For example, your postulating that they thought he was firing blanks is preposterous. Likewise the idea that they didn’t realize he was shooting at them when he was running at them pointing a pistol. You can propose all sorts of bizarre reasons they might not have responded as an average person would, but they fact remains that they didn’t behave like the average person. I can’t say I’ve seen a lot of videos of shootings, but in general once the shooting starts people run like hell. ---
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/86 "2021-02-09T01:28:51Z")
> [@mixdenny](#): > > But the reload tactics are for police, spies and other trained shooters. The average citizen doesn’t learn them. Come on over! Or… “Come on Over! Shoot for ‘High Score’ ! Win valuable prizes…!” ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/87 "2021-02-09T01:29:15Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > It’s certainly not to walk directly toward the shooter, as he is shooting in your direction, trying to video him with your phone, while shouting “Go ahead,” as Goy’s wife did It’s called a ‘flight or fight’ reaction for a reason, and it’s not under rational control. There’s an Australian citizen, until recently (or perhaps still) in jail in a European country, for manslaughter or some similar crime. He pulled a knife: he claims it was in self defense, it killed the son of an important prosecutor. Naturally, he was attacked when he pulled the knife. It’s what actually happens: when you threaten people, they attack you. It’s long been known that it’s a problem with poorly trained people with guns. They think that the gun is somehow in itself threatening and defensive. It’s not. That’s why people who are trained to draw a gun are trained to shoot with it. “Never point a gun at a person unless you intend to shoot them”. That’s not just “Never point a gun at a person”. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/88 "2021-02-09T01:50:45Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > It’s called a ‘flight or fight’ reaction for a reason, and it’s not under rational control. She wasn’t attacking him, she was videoing him. If she or Goy had tried to rush Spaide when he came out with the gun, that might have made a little sense. They might prefer to try to disarm him than get shot in the back. But they neither fought nor fled. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/89 "2021-02-09T01:58:09Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > With all due respect, this all strikes me as a lot of handwaving to try to justify your initial response. How many times have you been shot at? Do you have a lot of real life experience shooting at people and watching people being shot at? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/90 "2021-02-09T01:59:39Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > How many times have you been shot at? Do you have a lot of real life experience shooting at people and watching people being shot at? Do you? I’ve been mugged at gunpoint, and I’ve been teargassed during a demonstration. I’ve been charged by elephants. I never moved toward the danger. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/91 "2021-02-09T02:27:40Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > You can propose all sorts of bizarre reasons they might not have responded as an average person would, but they fact remains that they didn’t behave like the average person. This is precisely the point at issue. You keep asserting something like an objective standard for how normal or reasonable or average people would respond to being shot at in a situation that started as a shouting match between feuding neighbors and then escalated. Where’s your evidence for this? ETA: For reference, I am founding my _opinion_ in the training I received while in the Navy for both combat deployments and shipboard security. I am also basing it on yet more recent exposure to how “reasonable person” standards have been a point of issue in criminal and civil law cases in which what exactly a “reasonable person” would do has been a regular point of dispute, and often the subject of psychological study that refutes the sort of conclusions that you are coming to. Namely, that your or my _subjective_ understanding of how we _think_ a reasonable or normal or average person _should_ react will not necessarily correspond to the reality of how actual people _do_ react. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/92 "2021-02-09T03:04:26Z")
Also besides that there is a difference between how people who have training or firsthand experience are likely to react, and those who do not, some people just **do** go ahead and act irrationally and unpredictably when panic starts to set in. > [@Melbourne](#): > > It’s what actually happens: when you threaten people, they attack you. Or sometimes they run. Just that you have no guarantee of that. > [@Melbourne](#): > > It’s long been known that it’s a problem with poorly trained people with guns. They think that the gun is somehow in itself threatening and defensive. It’s not. That’s why people who are trained to draw a gun are trained to shoot with it. It is often mentioned in armed defense discussion: what is at stake, and are you willing to face the final consequences over that? Sure, if the other party flees and you don’t have to use your weapon, it’s a “win”, but once you threaten with it, you _ **have** _ escalated to a deadly force situation (and if you can’t prove self-defense, you have committed armed assault). ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/93 "2021-02-09T04:44:06Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > what is at stake, and are you willing to face the final consequences over that? This can be said about everything in life. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/94 "2021-02-09T12:35:25Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > She wasn’t attacking him, she was videoing him. Yeah, that’s not fight or flight. She appears to have had it in her head that recording the confrontation would serve as a deterrent to violent assault - apparently not realizing that when one is sufficiently motivated, the threat of prosecution isn’t really much of a deterrent. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > Some folks are just hell-bent on being intractable incorrigible problems. The Goys smell like that to me. I used to watch COPS a lot, and they’d regularly encounter people like that. It’s one thing to be in “flight” mode, before actually being apprehended; I’m talking instead about people who are already handcuffed but are so determined to be a pain in the ass that they end up hogtied in the back of the cruiser with a spit hood and a padded helmet. Maybe they all had ODD. > **[Oppositional defiant disorder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppositional_defiant_disorder)** > > Oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) is listed in the DSM-5 under Disruptive, impulse-control, and conduct disorders and defined as "a pattern of angry/irritable mood, argumentative/defiant behavior, or vindictiveness". This behavior is usually targeted toward peers, parents, teachers, and other authority figures, including law enforcement officials. Unlike conduct disorder (CD), those with ODD do not generally show patterns of aggression towards random people, violence against animals, Oppositi... ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/95 "2021-02-09T12:49:17Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > This is precisely the point at issue. You keep asserting something like an objective standard for how normal or reasonable or average people would respond to being shot at in a situation that started as a shouting match between feuding neighbors and then escalated. Where’s your evidence for this? What percentage of people do you personally think would respond in the way the Goys did, that is, moving toward a person who was shooting at them (but not trying to defend themselves) like the wife, or standing there like Goy? (Admittedly Goy’s reaction is somewhat understandable if he were simply paralyzed by fear) Ninety percent? Fifty percent? Ten percent? One percent? There was clearly something exceptionally toxic in the relationship between Spaide and the Goys. Nothing about the interaction was “normal.” ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/96 "2021-02-09T15:19:00Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > What percentage of people do you personally think would respond in the way the Goys did, that is, moving toward a person who was shooting at them (but not trying to defend themselves) like the wife, or standing there like Goy? (Admittedly Goy’s reaction is somewhat understandable if he were simply paralyzed by fear) Ninety percent? Fifty percent? Ten percent? One percent? I have no idea. That is, again, the point I am trying to make. Because while I have no idea–and keep trying to emphasize that point–how a “reasonable,” normal, or average person might react while or after being shot at under circumstances such as these, you _do_ seem to be confident enough to assert what a normal or average or reasonable person would do in this _extraordinary situation_. Your assertions as to what a reasonable or normal or average person would do seem to be based on your assessment of what a reasonable or normal or average person _should_ do. And I’m just trying to drive home that what normal/average/reasonable people _actually_ do when confronted with sudden violence or the threat of violence doesn’t always track so neatly with what seems (or even what objectively _is_) reasonable to an outside observer. I say again: I am not claiming to know what normal, average or reasonable people _would_ do when confronted with a situation like this, specifically when the gun comes out and shots are fired. That’s you. You’re the one claiming to know that. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/97 "2021-02-09T15:23:41Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > I have no idea. That is, again, the point I am trying to make. Because while I have no idea–and keep trying to emphasize that point–how a “reasonable,” normal, or average person might react while or after being shot at under circumstances such as these, you _do_ seem to be confident enough to assert what a normal or average or reasonable person would do in this _extraordinary situation_ . I am not confident about what any one individual would do in this situation. I am confident that a large majority of people would not act the way the Goys did. Obviously, YMMV. There are a large number of accounts of shootings, both mass shootings and confrontations, in the news. Now we do sometimes hear of people who commit “suicide by cop” or otherwise behave irrationally towards attackers, but I can’t say I have ever seen an account of someone who behaved in a similar manner to the Goys. I think it is a reasonable inference that such behavior is rare. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/98 "2021-02-09T16:06:50Z")
When I first heard of this incident, I had pictured that the people were next-door neighbors, and the snow got dumped over the property line. But in fact, they’re across the street from each other. Why on earth would they need to move their snow all the way across the street? Unless I’m missing something, it seems that the Goys were deliberately trying to piss Spaide off. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/99 "2021-02-09T16:22:09Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Why on earth would they need to move their snow all the way across the street? Unless I’m missing something, it seems that the Goys were deliberately trying to piss Spaide off. It’s not visible in the videos, but it definitely sounds like the Goys were deliberately trying to provoke Spaide. > [@bobot](#): > > From article: > “The Goys were shoveling the snow from their parking spots, shoveling the snow across the road, and throwing the snow onto Spaide’s property,” Salavantis and Binker said in their statement. > Witnesses told investigators that Spaide asked the couple to stop, sparking a heated exchange of words. James Goy apparently threw a tool at Spaide that he had been using to clear snow from his car, according to the statement. …" ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269/100 "2021-02-09T17:20:07Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Why on earth would they need to move their snow all the way across the street? Viewing from the video, the parking is “asymmetrical” on the different sides of the street. (Assuming directions based on video orientation) The street runs E-W, w/ the Goys living on the S side and Spaide on the N. On the S side, where the Goys were shoveling, at least 3 cars are parked pulled in perpendicular to traffic, with their noses aimed at the Goys’ house. This is NOT what I usually envision as a STANDARD parking arrangement, with cars lined up along the side(s) of a street, facing parallel to the street. Cannot tell if the pull-in parking is unique to their property, but immediately to the W there seems to be 1 car parked parallel to the road. No cars are parked on Spaide’s side of the street. No idea whether it is allowed. Spaide has a driveway which is clear, and a fence near the street. He may have objected to the Goys piling snow up against or throwing it over that fence. Their options when shoveling between their cars is to shovel to the front (their property) or the back (the street). If they shovel towards their property, I imagine that might impact their access to their cars. If they shovel to the back, they then need to: 1) leave the snow in the street, 2) shovel it to the sides and back on their own property, or 3) continue pushing it across the street. So the Goys’ actions aren’t entirely unimaginable, but they are pretty clearly un-neighborly - especially if there is bad blood btw you and the affected neighbor, and you have not asked permission. Pretty common sort of situation where one party wishes to avoid even minimal inconvenience to themselves, but don’t care that their actions are unwelcome by someone else. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-dead-over-snow-shoveling-dispute-pa/932269.md?page=6)