# 3 Guantanamo Bay inmates commit suicide **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2006, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-guantanamo-bay-inmates-commit-suicide/360224 "2006-06-10T18:37:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-guantanamo-bay-inmates-commit-suicide/360224/1 "2006-06-10T18:37:32Z")
So 3 detainees commit suicide in the prison. What next? (I’ve no link yet because I’ve just seen the info no Sky News) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-guantanamo-bay-inmates-commit-suicide/360224/2 "2006-06-10T18:39:35Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > So 3 detainees commit suicide in the prison. What next? We collectively shrug our shoulders. Assuming they even _really_ commited suicide; we might have just killed them to cover up evidence, like them being completely innocent, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-guantanamo-bay-inmates-commit-suicide/360224/3 "2006-06-10T18:41:01Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > We collectively shrug our shoulders. Assuming they even _really_ commited suicide; we might have just killed them to cover up evidence, like them being completely innocent, for example. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-guantanamo-bay-inmates-commit-suicide/360224/4 "2006-06-10T18:58:02Z")
I don’t see killing them because of a cover-up, but it’s possible they were accidentally killed and suicide is the cover story. Anyway, presumeably there’s going to be an investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-guantanamo-bay-inmates-commit-suicide/360224/5 "2006-06-10T19:18:30Z")
There’s as much a chance they were killed by fellow inmates. Prison is, after all, prison. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-guantanamo-bay-inmates-commit-suicide/360224/6 "2006-06-10T19:19:16Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > We collectively shrug our shoulders. Assuming they even really commited suicide; we might have just killed them to cover up evidence, like them being completely innocent, for example. :rolleyes: Since we’ve already released a few folks from Gitmo because they WERE found to be completely innocent, wouldn’t this be a bit like closing the barn door after the horse was stolen? I’ll await further developments…its a bit early to tell what may or may not have happened. Unless your Der Trihs of course…then you always know that its the worst possible thing you can think of, and that you are probably underestimating things at that. Its Bush and America after all…the REAL Axis of Evil™! 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-guantanamo-bay-inmates-commit-suicide/360224/7 "2006-06-10T19:32:48Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > :rolleyes: Since we’ve already released a few folks from Gitmo because they WERE found to be completely innocent, wouldn’t this be a bit like closing the barn door after the horse was stolen? And we were embarrassed by it; perhaps the Administration doesn’t want a repeat. Why is it so strange to think that people who don’t care if they torture innocent people will kill them afterwards ? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-guantanamo-bay-inmates-commit-suicide/360224/8 "2006-06-10T19:39:48Z")
Kill them…because they are innocent? Why would they take the risk of being caught? Its not like we don’t all know about all the OTHER scandals, things like AG and torture. Unless they are complete morons (granted, its a possibility), they have to know that the risk of being caught is defintely there…and for what? To make sure we don’t know that these folks are innocent? How does this make even the remotest sense to you? Its so far off my own Occams Razor scale as to nestle among ‘Aliens killed them’, or perhaps ‘The Goat Sucker got them’. 😛 Again…I will await, with bated (or is it baited 😉 ) breath further revelations. I’m still holding out for the goat sucker… -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-guantanamo-bay-inmates-commit-suicide/360224/9 "2006-06-10T19:47:19Z")
FYI, here is a [link](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13246132/) to the story and whats known so far. > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON - Three detainees at Guantanamo Bay apparently committed suicide amid protests of the U.S. military prison by inmates, the Defense Department said Saturday. They were the first reported deaths at the detention center for suspected terrorists. > > Two men from Saudi Arabia and one from Yemen were found “unresponsive and not breathing in their cells” early Saturday, according to a statement from U.S. Southern Command. Attempts were made to revive the prisoners, but failed. > [@](#): > > The military said in its statement that “all lifesaving measures had been exhausted” in the attempt to revive the detainees. The remains were being treated “with the utmost respect,” an issue important to Muslims. A cultural adviser was assisting the military. > > Though the military termed the deaths suicides, the Naval Criminal Investigative Service was investigating to establish the official cause and manner of death. Here is an interesting side note though: > [@](#): > > “We would like to end the Guantanamo — we’d like it to be empty,” Bush said. But he added: “There are some that, if put out on the streets, would create grave harm to American citizens and other citizens of the world. And, therefore, I believe they ought to be tried in courts here in the United States.” > > Bush said his administration was waiting for the Supreme Court to rule whether he overstepped his authority in ordering the detainees to be tried by U.S. military tribunals. “We’re waiting on our Supreme Court to act,” he said. If true this is exactly my own desire on this issue. Close down the camp and try those inside, giving them full due process…even if its before a military court. Convict them if possible or set them free if not. Resolve the fucking issue one way or the other. Maybe the administration is FINALLY starting to see the light. Enough people have been hammering on their stupid block walls now that maybe some sun light is starting to shine in… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Clam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@Happy\_Clam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Clam)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-guantanamo-bay-inmates-commit-suicide/360224/10 "2006-06-10T19:48:15Z")
I’m agree it’s highly unlikely they were deliberately killed, even if they are innocent (remember, just because they authorities have released a small number of innocent prisoners doesn’t mean there aren’t lots left). However, I think it is not outside the range of possibility that they were accidentally killed, most likely while being tortured (oh, whoops, _abused_. Or is it intense interrogation this week?) and that a suicide story is better than admitting that the US again broke its own rules and was incompetent enough to murder one of the “detainees” in their own version of the gulag (anyone remember an certain Iraqi general?). On the other hand, I don’t think it’s that likely- because considering that the entire world already knows about the flagrant human rights abuses in Guantanamo, and that no-one seems willing to even slap America on the wrist for them (not even the American public. Not even the Democratic party, which I had been informed were not particuarly pro-torture and illegal detention, but what do I know?), I can’t think of why the camp authorities would bother with a cover-up when they noone gives a rat’s ass either way. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-guantanamo-bay-inmates-commit-suicide/360224/11 "2006-06-10T19:48:36Z")
Story: [http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=2061808](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=2061808) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-guantanamo-bay-inmates-commit-suicide/360224/12 "2006-06-10T19:57:26Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Kill them…because they are innocent? Why would they take the risk of being caught? Why have they taken the risk before, and when have they paid a penalty for getting caught ? > [@xtisme](#): > > Unless they are complete morons (granted, its a possibility), they have to know that the risk of being caught is defintely there…and for what? To make sure we don’t know that these folks are innocent? Why not ? And again, given what they have already done, why is it so strange to think they would do such a thing ? I’d expect them to kill an innocent man as casually as I’d scratch an itch, and with as little guilt. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-guantanamo-bay-inmates-commit-suicide/360224/13 "2006-06-10T19:59:54Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > :rolleyes: Hmmm… We know what, exactly? The USA detains people for unknown reasons, in poorly known conditions, abduct people, including citizens of allied countries or people _in_ allied countries, for still unknown reasons, detain them in secret prisons, don’t even tell who they are, etc, etc… Given such conditions, how would you know nobody is deliberatly killed in the process? How would it be so obvious that such a thing can’t happen that it deserves rolleyes? The USA doesn’t seem to respect any generally accept principles. Arbitrary arrest, arbitrary detention, secret arrest, secret detention, no charges, no access to the inmates, no lawyers, no list of prisonners, no nothing. When you’re operating using such methods, there’s absolutely no guarantee of anything. There’s no way to know whether or not people are tortured, shot in the head and burried behind the jail for intance. Just rolling eyes or stating “they would never do something like that!!!” isn’t enough. That’s precisely why usually people are arrested for a known cause, their identity isn’t secret, they can communicate, etc… That’s the only way we can know that nobody awful is happening. Here, we don’t know anything except that any basic principle is completely ignored, so any kind of suspicion is perfectly allowable and justified. That’s a direct and unavoidable consequence of the current tinpot dictature-like behavior of the USA. When your services behave exactly as they do in a random dictatorship, you deserve the same level of suspicion. Why should I feel compelled to believe _one word_ from the CIA for instance when there’s no way to check anything, except precisely that said CIA doesn’t seem to follow any rule? I’m sorry, but if you personnally abduct random people for unknown reasons, I’m not going to take your word for it if you tell me that you did so for a good cause and that they’re well treated. I would just expect you to be arrested, tried and sentenced for what is, in fact, a crime. And then only we would know if the people you kidnapped are actually safe (and if they’ve found “suicided”, you’ll have some spalining to do). American operatives doing the same thing are in my mind, exactly the same as you would be : criminals. And I’ve no reason to trust criminals and people giving orders to criminals. I would finally add that if someone is arbitrarily detained without cause, without trial, without any hint about when he will be freed and as a result commits suicide, whoever decided to detain him is responsible for his death. And I don’t mean “vaguely morally responsible”. I mean criminally responsible. He should end up in front of a court of law (assumedly, he at least will be lucky, and the rule of law will apply to him). ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-guantanamo-bay-inmates-commit-suicide/360224/14 "2006-06-10T20:13:05Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Why have they taken the risk before, and when have they paid a penalty for getting caught ? Though I’m sure you don’t see it, there is a substantial difference between torturing a terrorist suspect for information that may be useful in preventing future terror attacks, or in tracking down OTHER suspected terrorists or terrorist cells (I’m sure you feel we torture these guys for laughs), and killing civilians we KNOW are innocent…killing them BECAUSE in fact they are innocent and we don’t want anyone to find out. Leaving aside the moral rights and wrongs and looking at it coldly, killing innocent civilians you know to be innocent because you want to prevent people from finding out they are innocent is, well, fucking stupid in the extreme. Because, you know, we will find out not only that they were killed deliberately but killed because they were innocent…so you get a double whammy when a single whammy was what you WOULD have gotten (if that…we ALREADY know that some of the detainees there are innocent, or at least can’t be proven to be guilty…so in essences you’d be killing these folks and taking the risk of exposuer FOR NO GOOD REASON!). Slightly more probable is what a few other posters have said…that they were accidentally killed during interrigation and that there is a cover up going on. Again, its not like these coverups have been singularly successful in the past…I don’t know of a single one that has actually managed to cover up ANYTHING yet. As to clairobscur’s statements, he would know…being French and all. 😉 -XT ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-guantanamo-bay-inmates-commit-suicide/360224/15 "2006-06-10T20:52:50Z")
Wait, what?! > [@George W. Bush](#): > > “We would like to end the Guantanamo — we’d like it to be empty,” Bush said. But he added: “There are some that, if put out on the streets, would create grave harm to American citizens and other citizens of the world. And, therefore, I believe they ought to be tried in courts here in the United States.” > > Bush said his administration was waiting for the Supreme Court to rule whether he overstepped his authority in ordering the detainees to be tried by U.S. military tribunals. “We’re waiting on our Supreme Court to act,” he said. Translation: “What we really want is for Guantanamo to be shut down. You can all blame the Supreme Court for not opposing me when I wanted it set up in the first place. Now I’m goint to tap my foot, roll my eyes, and scoff like Al Gore in the 2000 debates until they excercise their ability to restrain my power. What a bunch of lazies.” ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-guantanamo-bay-inmates-commit-suicide/360224/16 "2006-06-10T21:02:30Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Though I’m sure you don’t see it, there is a substantial difference between torturing a terrorist suspect for information that may be useful in preventing future terror attacks, or in tracking down OTHER suspected terrorists or terrorist cells (I’m sure you feel we torture these guys for laughs), and killing civilians we KNOW are innocent…killing them BECAUSE in fact they are innocent and we don’t want anyone to find out. > -XT Do you still have faith in the myth that torture gets us true and useful information? No wonder GW was reelected. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-guantanamo-bay-inmates-commit-suicide/360224/17 "2006-06-10T21:04:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Given such conditions, how would you know nobody is deliberatly killed in the process? How would it be so obvious that such a thing can’t happen that it deserves rolleyes? Because it’s profoundly stupid to assume that the US military guards and administration of the prison would allow the prisoners who’d been declared innocent or awaiting trial to be summarily executed for no apparent reason. > [@](#): > > The USA doesn’t seem to respect any generally accept principles. Arbitrary arrest, arbitrary detention, secret arrest, secret detention, no charges, no access to the inmates, no lawyers, no list of prisonners, no nothing. When you’re operating using such methods, there’s absolutely no guarantee of anything. There’s no way to know whether or not people are tortured, shot in the head and burried behind the jail for intance. Just rolling eyes or stating “they would never do something like that!!!” isn’t enough. If Guantanamo prisoners were executed, word would get out alot quicker than what we’re seeing. Since that isn’t the case, I can safely assume that no one is being automatically condemned to death for no reason. > [@](#): > > That’s precisely why usually people are arrested for a known cause, their identity isn’t secret, they can communicate, etc… That’s the only way we can know that nobody awful is happening. Here, we don’t know anything except that any basic principle is completely ignored, so any kind of suspicion is perfectly allowable and justified. That’s a direct and unavoidable consequence of the current tinpot dictature-like behavior of the USA. When your services behave exactly as they do in a random dictatorship, you deserve the same level of suspicion. Why should I feel compelled to believe _one word_ from the CIA for instance when there’s no way to check anything, except precisely that said CIA doesn’t seem to follow any rule? But it was legal (read the Geneva accords) since none of the combatants belong to a state, only an organisation dedicated to bringing destruction to anyone who opposes them. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry, but if you personnally abduct random people for unknown reasons, I’m not going to take your word for it if you tell me that you did so for a good cause and that they’re well treated. I’m not here to convince, frankly I couldn’t care less, however on what Xtisme said, with what, Abu Gharib and other scandals, I don’t think the Administration is going to go to such lengths of actually killing the prisoners with no just cause for the sake of it, even if you hate the administration, you’ve got to admit it’s stretching it a bit thin when flights of fancy such as what Der Trhils said are being considered as gospel. > [@](#): > > I would just expect you to be arrested, tried and sentenced for what is, in fact, a crime. And then only we would know if the people you kidnapped are actually safe (and if they’ve found “suicided”, you’ll have some spalining to do). American operatives doing the same thing are in my mind, exactly the same as you would be : criminals. And I’ve no reason to trust criminals and people giving orders to criminals. All I read was a bunch of slogans combined with faulty logic, sometimes, when the Government says they committed suicide, they actually did. Besides, even if they were killed, their bodies would have to be returned, and the subsequent law suits and trials trying to bring the truth of what happened would eventually come out. So what would be the point in executing people who are possibly innocent when you can execute them legally in a court of law if found guilty? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-guantanamo-bay-inmates-commit-suicide/360224/18 "2006-06-10T21:14:01Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > But it was legal (read the Geneva accords) since none of the combatants belong to a state, only an organisation dedicated to bringing destruction to anyone who opposes them. All the Guantanamo prisoners are citizens of one state or another (unless there’s a Palestinian in there somewhere), and how do you know any of them are members of **any** organization? Or that they ever were “combatants,” for that matter? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-guantanamo-bay-inmates-commit-suicide/360224/19 "2006-06-10T21:24:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > All the Guantanamo prisoners are citizens of one state or another (unless there’s a Palestinian in there somewhere), and how do you know any of them are members of **any** organization? Or that they ever were “combatants,” for that matter? :dubious: That’s the legal mumbo jumbo givin’ the reasons as to why they’re there under military rules and conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-guantanamo-bay-inmates-commit-suicide/360224/20 "2006-06-10T21:27:31Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Though I’m sure you don’t see it, there is a substantial difference between torturing a terrorist suspect for information that may be useful in preventing future terror attacks, or in tracking down OTHER suspected terrorists or terrorist cells (I’m sure you feel we torture these guys for laughs), and killing civilians we KNOW are innocent…killing them BECAUSE in fact they are innocent and we don’t want anyone to find out. Both are barbaric; I see no difference. > [@xtisme](#): > > Leaving aside the moral rights and wrongs and looking at it coldly, killing innocent civilians you know to be innocent because you want to prevent people from finding out they are innocent is, well, **fucking stupid in the extreme.** Bolding mine; the Bush Administration in a nutshell. > [@xtisme](#): > > Again, its not like these coverups have been singularly successful in the past…I don’t know of a single one that has actually managed to cover up ANYTHING yet.-XT By definition, if it succeeded we wouldn’t know. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Because it’s profoundly stupid to assume that the US military guards and administration of the prison would allow the prisoners who’d been declared innocent or awaiting trial to be summarily executed for no apparent reason. And since when have they looked at prisoners, innocent or guilty, as anything other than victims to be brutalized ? > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > But it was legal (read the Geneva accords) since none of the combatants belong to a state, only an organisation dedicated to bringing destruction to anyone who opposes them. Legal or not, it’s still barbaric and there’s no evidence that a signifigant number were guilty of anything. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/3-guantanamo-bay-inmates-commit-suicide/360224.md?page=2)