# $30-40 Billion to clean up WTC?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 2, 2001, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/30-40-billion-to-clean-up-wtc/84989 "2001-10-02T16:16:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Gazoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/67e7ee/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Gazoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Gazoo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/30-40-billion-to-clean-up-wtc/84989/1 "2001-10-02T16:16:28Z")
This morning on Fox News Cable or whatever they call it, some reporter said it was going to take $30-40 BILLION to clean up WTC. There has been a lot of hyperbole (i.e., airlines laying off 120,000 people, etc.), but this just seems way out of line. Did this guy make a mistake or can it possibly cost that much?? ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/30-40-billion-to-clean-up-wtc/84989/2 "2001-10-02T16:40:50Z")
The Senate has estimated that it will cost $39 billion to clean up _and rebuild_: [http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Attacks-Trade-Center.html](http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Attacks-Trade-Center.html) (Requires sign-up to the NY Times Web site to view) ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/30-40-billion-to-clean-up-wtc/84989/3 "2001-10-02T16:42:07Z")
It could cost that much, depending on what costs are associated with the cleanup. First, there’s the millions of man hours (including overtime) just to move the rubble. The thousands of dump trucks and loaders they’ll need to load it, the cleaning out and patching up of the subway and utility tunnels that are now leaking water (the WTC was actually built on fill dirt), etc. Theren there’s the toxic waste clean up. You can bet that a building site is full of everything from asbestos to PCBs. The rubble will have to be sifted through, the contaminated rubble moved to toxic waste disposal sites and clean fill dirt brought in. And, not to be any more ghoulish than the situation calls for, but if any identifiable bodies (or body parts) are found, they’ll need to be identified and treated with the appropriate dignity. Remember, the WTC site is massive. Consider that each of the towers measured 208 feet on a side, times 110 stories, plus the underground sections, then add the smaller but still large buildings that also need to be leveled and cleaned out. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Gazoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/67e7ee/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Gazoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Gazoo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/30-40-billion-to-clean-up-wtc/84989/4 "2001-10-02T17:05:40Z")
All righty, I did a calculation. 100,000 workers \* 1000 hours \* $50/hr = $5 Billion. That’s a lot of workers, 6 months of 40 hour work weeks, $50/hr. There will be, of course, machinery costs and disposal costs for building materials, etc. I don’t want to sign up for NY Times. A brief breakdown of costs?? Please? Pretty please with sugar on it?? 😃 How much of the $39 Billion is rebuilding, which was not mentioned as the $30-40 Billion in the reporter’s story. This is a fairly new building, I think asbestos would not have been used. The big asbestos suits that caused Johns Manville (than a Dow 30 Industrial company) to file bankruptcy was in the late 70’s/early 80’s. Some of the other smaller buildings may be older and may have asbestos. ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/30-40-billion-to-clean-up-wtc/84989/5 "2001-10-02T17:40:29Z")
The Times article didn’t break down the costs, it just cited the $39 billion figure and attributed it to a Senate report. The WTC was completed in the early '70s, so I imagine it did use asbestos. ---
**Author:** ![labradorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3ec8ea/32.png) [@labradorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/labradorian)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/30-40-billion-to-clean-up-wtc/84989/6 "2001-10-02T18:11:38Z")
It was reported somewhere that the lower x/y (not sure of the ratio) of the towers contained asbestos fireproofing. ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/30-40-billion-to-clean-up-wtc/84989/7 "2001-10-02T18:11:59Z")
Here’s an article about the Senate report that gave the estimate: [WTC Recovery Will Be Nearly $40B](http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010929/us/attacks_trade_center_220.html) The breakdown: [li]$7 billion for rubble removal and clean-up[/li][li]$8.2 billion for rebuilding[/li][li]$4.1 billion for fixing subways[/li][li]$3.6 billion for overtime for police, firefighters, etc.[/li] Which doesn’t equal $39 billion, but that’s all they give, and I can’t find the original report. ---
**Author:** ![Running\_with\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Running\_with\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Running_with_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/30-40-billion-to-clean-up-wtc/84989/8 "2001-10-02T18:42:30Z")
[QUOTE] **_Originally posted by SmackFu_ [li]$4.1 billion for fixing subways**[/li][/QUOTE] Can someone explain why this is necessarily so expensive? There were essentially two lines that went under the WTC - The 7th ave line (IRT - 1,2,3,9) and the 8th ave line (IND - A,C,E). OK, currently, the A & C trains are running pretty much as normal, although they skip the Chambers street/WTC station, which still looks intact (the trains go through the station but do not stop there). The E train used to terminate at WTC; that station is obviously gone, the E now starts at Canal Street (on the updated map I have, which appears to be inaccurate, the C is not listed, and the E is shown as following a sort of hybrid C/E route). The 9 is discontinued, and the 3 now starts at 14th street and goes uptown from there. The 1 & 9 trains used to go under the WTC; that station is now destroyed, and the 2 stations south of there (Rector St. & South Ferry) are currently inaccessible since the only route to those stations was through WTC. So we’ve got two stations that need to be rebuilt (E & 1/9) plus some tunnels & tracks. Why does this cost so much? [Here’s a link](http://www.brail.org/transit/nycall-9-01.html) to a(n unofficial) map that looks like it may be more accurate. While I was typing this, it occurred to me that they may be referring to the PATH station as well, which might explain part of it. Anyone have any more details than that? ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/30-40-billion-to-clean-up-wtc/84989/9 "2001-10-02T18:57:54Z")
Some more info, a NY Times article: [Subway by Trade Center to Take Years to Rebuild](http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/28/nyregion/28SUBW.html) (Make sure you check out the multimedia thing on that page, in the right column. It has a map of the damage.) I can’t imagine this part will be cheap: > [@](#): > > To shore up the street so recovery equipment can use it, transit officials have agreed to pump about 220 feet of the tunnel full of concrete — enough concrete to cover an entire football field a foot deep. Months later, when the debris is cleared, transit workers will then have to carve away all that new concrete to rebuild the line. ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/30-40-billion-to-clean-up-wtc/84989/10 "2001-10-02T22:35:51Z")
Once on the news they said it costs $100M per week to clean it up. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2001, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/30-40-billion-to-clean-up-wtc/84989/11 "2001-10-03T14:52:51Z")
Another cost: $1 billion for replacing lost fire and rescue vehicles. Some of the fire trucks can cost $400,000 each. Yipes. ---
**Author:** ![DougC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2001, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/30-40-billion-to-clean-up-wtc/84989/12 "2001-10-03T15:45:27Z")
- - - **Well jeeeeeeze, it’s New York fer crissakes.** - You got your daily cleanup application fee ($500), your daily cleanup application fee guide ($500), your daily cleanup directory permit outline ($500), your daily cleanup public loading application permit ($500), your daily cleanup union employee registration permit ($500), daily cleanup union management fees ($500/person), daily cleanup steelworker union permit ($500/person), daily transportation permits ($500/truck), daily interchange permits ($500/truck), truck loading fees ($500/day), truck unloading fees ($500/day), truck parking permits ($100/day), permit application fees ($500/each), permit processing fees ($500/each), daily safety inspector permits ($500/inspector), daily steelworker union supervisor fees ($1000/person), daily steelworker shop steward fees ($1000/person), daily pipefitter union supervisor fees ($1000/person), daily pipefitter shop steward fees ($1000/person), daily teamsters union supervisor fees ($1000), daily teamsters shop steward fees ($1000), daily bricklayers union supervisor fees ($1000), daily bricklayers shop steward fees ($1000), OSHA inspector fees ($5000), OSHA testing fees ($3000), OSHA supervisor fees ($3000), municipal dept of roads and brodges supervisor fees ($10,000), municipal dept of roads and bridges inspector fees ($10,000), municipal dept of roads and bridges engineer fees ($10,000), various assistants for each (half pay), assistants to the assistants, also known as “nephews”-(1/4 pay), and there’s overtime pay, evening pay, night pay, sunday pay, -and that’s just for cleaning the mess up. We ain’t even talked about _building_ anything yet. - I mean, ya know, it’s like a system, see? - MC ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/30-40-billion-to-clean-up-wtc/84989/13 "2001-10-04T03:06:28Z")
That was brilliant. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/30-40-billion-to-clean-up-wtc/84989/14 "2001-10-04T03:17:46Z")
**MC** , you forgot, “Protection.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/30-40-billion-to-clean-up-wtc/84989/15 "2001-10-04T03:25:10Z")
From [http://www.nycsubway.org](http://www.nycsubway.org) : [Pre-attack map](http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/maps/historical/map-2001-07-22.gif) [September 17th map](http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/maps/historical/map-2001-09-17.gif) [September 19th map](http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/maps/historical/map-2001-09-19.gif) [Photos of station damage](http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/westside/wtc-damage/) [Downtown area track layout](http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/smdowntn.gif) (not updated since attacks, but as far as I know nothing has been added since then) [SubTalk Message Board](http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi), where this has doubtlessly been discussed in detail. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/30-40-billion-to-clean-up-wtc/84989/16 "2001-10-04T03:58:42Z")
Oh, and the [current map](http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/maps/route/nysubway.gif) would be useful. The Chambers Street A, C, & E and the Park Place 1 & 2 stations are still closed, apparently, but should reopen. Permanent changes seem to be: No service on the IRT Broadway line (the 9) below Chambers Street. The 3 terminates at 14th Street, and the 1 now covers everything that used to be the 3 below that. No express service below 14th Street. No service to WTC station on the IND 8th Ave. line. The E now terminates at Canal Street. Presumably, when Chambers Street reopens, it will terminate there. The M, J, & Z also seem to have no more express service. No service on the BMT Broadway line for the N & R. Q & W service only. Still wondering what could possibly cost $4,100,000,000 though. I would think that for that price, they could build the Second Avenue line that they’ve been planning on for 80 years now. ---
**Author:** ![Tazma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3be4f8/32.png) [@Tazma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tazma)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/30-40-billion-to-clean-up-wtc/84989/17 "2001-10-04T04:51:00Z")
I was in NYC this weekend, staying in the Marriott Marquis in the heart of Times Square. I was there for business, but just about all of the other guests were there from FEMA or Red Cross. (Deloitte & Touche employees were also there in force…the company has rented four floors of the hotel as office space) This hotel costs $299 a night! I’m sure the gov’t has cut some deal with Marriott but it can’t be cheap to house all those workers. Sadly, those large price tags for cleanup sound about right… ---
**Author:** ![DougC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/30-40-billion-to-clean-up-wtc/84989/18 "2001-10-04T18:23:38Z")
- - - Actually I’m being somewhat of an _asshole_. ~ - I know if it was my family and friends in there, I’d want them out as soon as possible but I heavily suspect that in times such as these lots of money really just gets thrown to the wind. -After all, it would be callous and insensitive to bicker over _mere dollars_ at a time like this… -I do not expect we’ll see any crusadng politicians doing so. - MC ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/30-40-billion-to-clean-up-wtc/84989/19 "2001-10-04T19:23:05Z")
Wouldn’t a lot of these costs actually be kind of positive. This may be really twisted logic, but isn’t the president and everyone saying that now is the time to spend to shore up the economy? If it’s going to cost $40 billion, that’s $40 billion of goods and services being rendered. Healthy for the economy, right? I mean, it’s not like we’re burning up 40 billion one dollar bills. We’re going to pump it into the NY economy. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/30-40-billion-to-clean-up-wtc/84989/20 "2001-10-04T21:10:22Z")
> [@](#): > > If it’s going to cost $40 billion, that’s $40 billion of goods and services being rendered. Well, if it was all money that otherwise would have been hidden under the mattress. However, since the $40 billion would probably have been spent on goods and services otherwise, and since those goods and services would probably have been used for something more productive than returning NYC to its _status quo ante_, we are economically far worse off than by never having had the WTC blown up. The second chapter of Henry Hazlitt’s _Economics in One Lesson_ deals with this sort of situation. Of course, the book doesn’t deal with externalities and the usefulness of government in handling them, but is still a worthwhile read, IMHO. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/30-40-billion-to-clean-up-wtc/84989.md?page=2)