# 36 Reasons Why You Should Thank a Union... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2014, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/36-reasons-why-you-should-thank-a-union/679683 "2014-01-25T11:57:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/36-reasons-why-you-should-thank-a-union/679683/101 "2014-01-27T17:42:00Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > There’s LOTS of news reports about it. The biggest battlefields have been on the state level lately , like Wisconsin and Ohio. Great, then a few cites would be appreciated. > [@](#): > > You are known as a “freeloader.” You’re like the guy who takes cookies from the jar but doesn’t put any money into the cup next to it. You are free to do so, but you should be ashamed. > > You may also find that in the future, when you lose the benefits you have, you wish you had pitched in to protect them. That requires the ability to think beyond the present as well as beyond yourself though. How am I a freeloader for not working in a position that’s union and why is that shameful? Does everyone have to actively seek out union jobs? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/36-reasons-why-you-should-thank-a-union/679683/102 "2014-01-27T17:56:01Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > What 36 benefits are we talking about here? You’ve posted a list of 36 benefits, but others in the thread had already explained why many of them didn’t come from unions. Are you going to respond to that fact, or just ignore it? > [@The Second Stone](#): > > I’m not going to respond. You certainly deserve credit for a straightforward answer. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/36-reasons-why-you-should-thank-a-union/679683/103 "2014-01-27T19:25:52Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > Great, then a few cites would be appreciated. No. I’m not going to read the newspaper to you. If you’re not well-informed about this issue, you probably shouldn’t be discussing it. If you want to claim there are no such events, well, that might make me go out and find something to embarrass you. I’m like that. But the fact that Republicans have been attacking unions and collective bargaining lately is pretty much common knowledge, and if you’re not familiar with it, I suggest you go read up. > [@](#): > > How am I a freeloader for not working in a position that’s union and why is that shameful? Does everyone have to actively seek out union jobs? I thought you meant you were in a union job but hadn’t joined. Obviously you can’t join a union if you have no union to join. I don’t know what your point is in that case. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/36-reasons-why-you-should-thank-a-union/679683/104 "2014-01-27T20:13:44Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > No. I’m not going to read the newspaper to you. If you’re not well-informed about this issue, you probably shouldn’t be discussing it. > > If you want to claim there are no such events, well, that might make me go out and find something to embarrass you. I’m like that. But the fact that Republicans have been attacking unions and collective bargaining lately is pretty much common knowledge, and if you’re not familiar with it, I suggest you go read up. I’m not the one that brought that up and never claimed it wasn’t happening. I asked for cites so being given some would hardly be embarrassing to me. I did a news search for ‘Unions Ohio’ and the only thing I found was discussion of a possible bill to pass right to work legislation. Is that what you’re talking about? > [@](#): > > I thought you meant you were in a union job but hadn’t joined. Obviously you can’t join a union if you have no union to join. I don’t know what your point is in that case. no, as I said earlier, there was a group attempting to organize my co-workers and I so I did some research and decided I wasn’t interested. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/36-reasons-why-you-should-thank-a-union/679683/105 "2014-01-27T20:19:44Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > I’m not the one that brought that up and never claimed it wasn’t happening. I asked for cites so being given some would hardly be embarrassing to me. I did a news search for ‘Unions Ohio’ and the only thing I found was discussion of a possible bill to pass right to work legislation. Is that what you’re talking about? Sorry to get huffy. It’s just that it’s all over the place. Republicans being anti-union is like Republicans wanting to lower taxes. It’s common knowledge. But okay, since you tried, I’ll help you along. > **[Ohio Turns Back a Law Limiting Unions’ Rights (Published 2011)](https://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/us/politics/ohio-turns-back-a-law-limiting-unions-rights.html)** > > Voters in Ohio delivered their verdict on a centerpiece of the conservative legislative agenda. > **[New labor movement emerges in Scott Walker's Wisconsin](https://www.salon.com/2013/08/02/new_labor_movement_emerges_in_scott_walkers_wisconsin/)** > > Two years after failing to oust the anti-labor governor, a different kind of mobilization is underway and spreading That doesn’t include lots of attacks in other states and the federal level, just scratching the surface. > [@](#): > > no, as I said earlier, there was a group attempting to organize my co-workers and I so I did some research and decided I wasn’t interested. Ah, I see. Why not? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/36-reasons-why-you-should-thank-a-union/679683/106 "2014-01-27T20:21:05Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > You post alot of cute comments. None of yours are. The auto industry in the US is heavily unionized. According to your way of thinking, it ought to be sitting pretty, and wages and benefits should be significantly better for the workers overall than for the vast majority of industries in the US who are non-union. Instead, a lot of them aren’t working at all, Detroit is a ghost town, and GM required billions of dollars in handouts. Right to work states have lower rates of unemployment than those without right to work legislation, and this has been the case since well before the latest recession ([cite](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/feb/28/bill-oreilly/bill-oreilly-says-unemployment-lower-right-work-st/).) Would you like to claim that this is also a benefit of unions for which we should be grateful? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/36-reasons-why-you-should-thank-a-union/679683/107 "2014-01-27T20:22:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > None of yours are. > > The auto industry in the US is heavily unionized. According to your way of thinking, it ought to be sitting pretty, and wages and benefits should be significantly better for the workers overall than for the vast majority of industries in the US who are non-union. Instead, a lot of them aren’t working at all, Detroit is a ghost town, and GM required billions of dollars in handouts. > > Right to work states have lower rates of unemployment than those without right to work legislation, and this has been the case since well before the latest recession ([cite](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/feb/28/bill-oreilly/bill-oreilly-says-unemployment-lower-right-work-st/).) Would you like to claim that this is also a benefit of unions for which we should be grateful? > > Regards, > Shodan I’m not interested in a conversation about this with you. I don’t think you’ll play fair at all, given your previous comments. Thanks anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/36-reasons-why-you-should-thank-a-union/679683/108 "2014-01-27T20:23:32Z")
Don’t worry about it - you didn’t have anything useful to say anyway. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/36-reasons-why-you-should-thank-a-union/679683/109 "2014-01-27T20:25:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Don’t worry about it - you didn’t have anything useful to say anyway. > > Regards, > Shodan And that comment doesn’t surprise me either. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/36-reasons-why-you-should-thank-a-union/679683/110 "2014-01-27T20:28:29Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Sorry to get huffy. It’s just that it’s all over the place. Republicans being anti-union is like Republicans wanting to lower taxes. It’s common knowledge. > > But okay, since you tried, I’ll help you along. > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/us/politics/ohio-turns-back-a-law-limiting-unions-rights.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/us/politics/ohio-turns-back-a-law-limiting-unions-rights.html) > > [http://www.salon.com/2013/08/02/new\_labor\_movement\_emerges\_in\_scott\_walkers\_wisconsin/](http://www.salon.com/2013/08/02/new_labor_movement_emerges_in_scott_walkers_wisconsin/) > > That doesn’t include lots of attacks in other states and the federal level, just scratching the surface. Ok, I do recall those items around public sector unions and agree that it was mostly republican backed. I’m not sure how I feel about them, so can’t really get into a good discussion around that. > [@](#): > > Ah, I see. > > Why not? They never gave us any concrete answers on what they could or would do for us. It felt like it was all rhetoric and nothing solid. I went to the meetings, talked to the union reps numerous times and was never given any direct answers beyond what I mentioned earlier in the thread. There was also the issue that they kept coming to where we were working and trying to get us to sign the cards (again, while not giving me any concrete answers), going to peoples homes repeatedly after being asked not to, etc. I don’t think every union does that, but this one did and it left me with too many cons and not nearly enough pros to want to join or vote for their representation. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/36-reasons-why-you-should-thank-a-union/679683/111 "2014-01-28T04:49:55Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Public education and SS are not union benefits. Be careful, according to Second Stone, only someone who’s ignorant or a liar would make such a statement. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/36-reasons-why-you-should-thank-a-union/679683/112 "2014-01-28T04:51:33Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I don’t think you’ll play fair at all, given your previous comments. Thanks anyway. How, by using facts and logic? Note, Shodan and I hardly see eye to eye on most issues. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/36-reasons-why-you-should-thank-a-union/679683/113 "2014-01-28T06:21:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > None of yours are. > > The auto industry in the US is heavily unionized. According to your way of thinking, it ought to be sitting pretty, and wages and benefits should be significantly better for the workers overall than for the vast majority of industries in the US who are non-union. Instead, a lot of them aren’t working at all, Detroit is a ghost town, and GM required billions of dollars in handouts. > > Right to work states have lower rates of unemployment than those without right to work legislation, and this has been the case since well before the latest recession ([cite](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/feb/28/bill-oreilly/bill-oreilly-says-unemployment-lower-right-work-st/).) Would you like to claim that this is also a benefit of unions for which we should be grateful? > > Regards, > Shodan According to that logic, Ford should have been in the shitter with GM and Chrysler. They weren’t. Despite being unionized just as much. The fact of the matter is that GM and Chrysler were run really, really badly, not by unions, but by management. Unions don’t run the car companies, they perform the work. Honda does just fine with a unionized plant in Ohio. I buy my cars from them. Another example is Hostess snack foods. Hostess went bankrupt selling junk food to Americans with the most recognizable brand with the best goodwill with the public. They were getting a better union deal from their union than their competitors. They still went belly up. But it wasn’t the union that made them go bankrupt. It was really, really, really shitty management. With the best labor deal in the industry and the best good name, they went bankrupt. Because of management. Management that blamed their colossal incompetence and greed on the unions making just more than minimum wage. Remember, you can sell snack cakes to Americans with the lowest labor cost and the favorite market name and still go bankrupt, but not due to unions, due to incompetence of management, not the people doing the factory baking. Remember, managers (and their water carriers) who blame unions will never blame management. It’s always unions and a less than perfect free marketplace, or something else. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/36-reasons-why-you-should-thank-a-union/679683/114 "2014-01-28T06:54:19Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > According to that logic, Ford should have been in the shitter with GM and Chrysler. They weren’t. Despite being unionized just as much. The fact of the matter is that GM and Chrysler were run really, really badly, not by unions, but by management. Unions don’t run the car companies, they perform the work. Honda does just fine with a unionized plant in Ohio. I buy my cars from them. > > Another example is Hostess snack foods. Hostess went bankrupt selling junk food to Americans with the most recognizable brand with the best goodwill with the public. They were getting a better union deal from their union than their competitors. They still went belly up. But it wasn’t the union that made them go bankrupt. It was really, really, really shitty management. With the best labor deal in the industry and the best good name, they went bankrupt. Because of management. Management that blamed their colossal incompetence and greed on the unions making just more than minimum wage. > > Remember, you can sell snack cakes to Americans with the lowest labor cost and the favorite market name and still go bankrupt, but not due to unions, due to incompetence of management, not the people doing the factory baking. > > Remember, managers (and their water carriers) who blame unions will never blame management. It’s always unions and a less than perfect free marketplace, or something else. Ah, glad to see that you’ve returned. Hopefully, you’re willing to explain your rather foolish claim that unions were responsible for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts making public education compulsory in 1852 even though the major unions in America didn’t come into existence until decades later. To people like me who are educated, logical, and possess average to above average intelligence what you’re claiming is demonstrably false, but hopefully you could explain yourself. How was it done? Did it involve time machines? Also, since you’ve enthusiastically supported harassing and threatening behavior, while declaring yourself to be an attorney, perhaps you could answer mine and Novelty Bobble’s reasonable requests. > [@](#): > > **Ibn Warraq** > Anyway, if I understand you correctly, what you’re saying is that during the 19th Century Chinese immigrants and African-American migrants from the South who came northward and took jobs that had been abandoned by European immigrants were comparable to the Nazis? > > So then, when European immigrants engaged in violence against said Chinese and African-Americans(or “Chinks” and “niggers”) to use the terms they did then, is your position that they were being like the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto who fought back against the Nazis? > [@](#): > > **Ibn Warraq** > What other sorts of behavior do you support? Throwing rocks, bottles, and or food at them? Since you seem to support threats, do you also support taking the threats a bit further and physically attacking the people involved? > [@](#): > > **Second Stone** > Scabs should have insults screamed at them, regardless of their motives. Paid assassins the same thing. Being a scab is far, far more shameful than insulting a scab for being a scab. It’s almost as shameful as the Jews that helped the SS at the death camps in exchange for slightly better treatment, and certainly comparable. (And yes, I went all Godwin, but it is an apt analogy.) > > I also approve of taking pictures of asshole scabs and their drivers driving away from the scene. And coming to the scab’s place of business and trying to get the scab fired for it. Payback is a bitch. The union jobs are not scab jobs and are not scab business. You come into their house and try to screw with their livelihood, I don’t see why they shouldn’t do the same to you. > > There really is nothing lower than a scab short of a criminal. Shame, ridicule, insults and loss of status in the community are just responses to scabbing. > [@](#): > > **Novelty Bobble** > Well, there we go QED. You heard it here people. The above is apparently an example of morally upright behaviour. > > You do realise that reason for unions losing their legitimacy in the eyes of many is encapsulated in the poisonous screed above. > > Let me test your dedication to acceptable moral standards. Someone crossing a picket line is beaten up…what is your reaction? Anyway, since you’re an attorney and apparently an expert in union history perhaps you can explain how unions were responsible for the creation of public education for children even though it occurred decades before they came into existence as well as explaining your feelings about violence being used against those you disgustingly refer to as scabs since you already heartily endorse threats and harassment against them. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/36-reasons-why-you-should-thank-a-union/679683/115 "2014-01-28T08:09:27Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Honda does just fine with a unionized plant in Ohio. I buy my cars from them. Are the workers at those plants represented by a union other than the UAW? Because no Honda vehicles are on the [2014 UAW Union-Built Vehicles List](http://uaw.org/sites/default/files/2014vehicles.pdf) (PDF). ETA: And was this a recent development? [As of 2011](http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/local/honda-invests-400m-in-ohio/nMwcD/), “none of Honda’s workers at its permanent operations in Ohio are represented by unions.” ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/36-reasons-why-you-should-thank-a-union/679683/116 "2014-01-28T14:19:28Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > They never gave us any concrete answers on what they could or would do for us. It felt like it was all rhetoric and nothing solid. I went to the meetings, talked to the union reps numerous times and was never given any direct answers beyond what I mentioned earlier in the thread. Well, without knowing the details, I’d interpret your situation this way. The union didn’t have much to offer you because you already had it good. And the reason you have it good is because of what unions won in the past. By making gains for some workers, they raised the market value of other workers. Employers had to give even non-union workers more pay and benefits so they could keep them from going to get union jobs, or trying to organize a union themselves. That is why unions like to remind people that they won things like the 40-hour, 5-day week, health insurance and other benefits, etc. that are pretty much standard for all workers now. They weren’t standard before, and they didn’t become standard until unions won them (which was the thrust of the OP). So perhaps you don’t need a union now, because you’re benefiting from what unions in the past got you. But the current trend is for pay and benefits to go DOWN, or at least not go up to keep pace with worker productivity. So you might wish you had a union someday to keep what you’ve got. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/36-reasons-why-you-should-thank-a-union/679683/117 "2014-01-28T14:21:03Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > How, by using facts and logic? No, but throwing out silly comments like “corruption!” and “violence!” ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/36-reasons-why-you-should-thank-a-union/679683/118 "2014-01-28T16:08:51Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > No, but throwing out silly comments like “corruption!” and “violence!” Well, those are two of the things that turn off many people in regards to unions. And frankly when we have people on this very thread(not you) who seem to be tacitly endorsing such behavior, it doesn’t help. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/36-reasons-why-you-should-thank-a-union/679683/119 "2014-01-28T16:17:21Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Well, those are two of the things that turn off many people in regards to unions. Doesn’t make the legitimate. > [@](#): > > And frankly when we have people on this very thread(not you) who seem to be tacitly endorsing such behavior, it doesn’t help. Agree, but it still doesn’t make it legitimate. There is a history of violence on BOTH sides of labor disputes. Those are rare today. Same goes for corruption. Neither are relevant to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/36-reasons-why-you-should-thank-a-union/679683/120 "2014-01-28T16:29:28Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So perhaps you don’t need a union now, because you’re benefiting from what unions in the past got you. But the current trend is for pay and benefits to go DOWN, or at least not go up to keep pace with worker productivity. So you might wish you had a union someday to keep what you’ve got. Which gets right back into the loop of they did good in the past and you just might, hypothetically need them in future. I’m sorry but I need something more concrete to go on before handing over a percentage of my salary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/36-reasons-why-you-should-thank-a-union/679683.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/36-reasons-why-you-should-thank-a-union/679683.md?page=7)