# 38% of households pay no federal income tax - bad for democracy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2009, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/38-of-households-pay-no-federal-income-tax-bad-for-democracy/504944 "2009-08-01T01:32:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/38-of-households-pay-no-federal-income-tax-bad-for-democracy/504944/41 "2009-08-01T19:51:39Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > I believe it’s from the NY Times. > > I’ll save you the trouble: your bickering point would be that that chart includes “luxury taxes” from consumption of alcohol and cigarettes, of which poor people consume more of as a percentage of their income. > > My counter would be “so what” I would like to see these numbers without the “luxury” taxes. I’ll see if I can dig up anything. It shouldn’t be too hard, since they cite where they get the alcohol and tobacco numbers. I’ll see what I can come up with. I also wonder how the numbers look with or without capital gains. The linked jpeg doesn’t saw if they’re included or not. Glad all this got posted. Making me think. And **magellan01** , I think every _other_ poster understands the point you were trying to make with the 33% thing, which still stands even if the numbers aren’t correct (and they aren’t, but whatever), so I wouldn’t worry about it too much. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/38-of-households-pay-no-federal-income-tax-bad-for-democracy/504944/42 "2009-08-01T20:37:11Z")
> [@AdmiralCrunch](#): > > When a person asks of another, “Why do you believe X?” It implies that the person being asked believes X. I have said no such thing, so I resent your implication. Please acknowledge that none of the “you” questions posed in a post quoting and responding to me were directed at me. Otherwise you were assuming opinions on my behalf, and I’d like you to admit that you have no basis for those assumptions. Okay, that helps. Now I see your problem. I assumed you held that belief. That was wrong for me to do. My apologies. I should have said “Do you believe…” and then asked why. So, I’ll do so now. Do you? And, if so, why? > [@AdmiralCrunch](#): > > All I’m asking is that you acknowledge that your simplistic formulation in no way reflects the US income tax, and that it is impossible for someone in the 33% bracket to pay 33% of their income in income taxes. I wasn’t challenging your point, I was correcting a commonly stated interpretation of the income tax. I’ve said repeatedly that is was a simplistic formulation. I think you go to far though in saying it in “no way” reflects U.S. income tax reality. I hope you realize that my point had nothing to do with the degree to which hypothetical 33% income tax rate results in a third of one’s efforts going to the government. If not, I’ll ask you to read my posts over with a macro lens. > [@AdmiralCrunch](#): > > I am unwilling to address the larger point when its assumptions are unsupported. I’m not going to dig up cites when my previous ones aren’t being read and understood. Neither you nor the OP has provided any correlation between income tax rates and anything else. I have no idea what your problem is here. You seem hell bent in not discussing the philosophical question posted in the OP. And using a great deal of words and rancor to do it. I clicked on this thread because i found the OP interesting. If YOU want to discuss something else, start a new thread and stop trying to derail this one. > [@AdmiralCrunch](#): > > I’m not going to do your work for you. Make a specific assertion and back it up with numbers. If you care to continue your line of argument, I suggest you read the linked Wikipedia article on the Earned Income Tax Credit, which is the heart of the OP’s discussion. I suggest a new thread when you finish reading the article in a couple of months. You confuse yourself with the OP. And your ability to read with your ability to comprehend. Have a nice day. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/38-of-households-pay-no-federal-income-tax-bad-for-democracy/504944/43 "2009-08-01T20:38:40Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > And **magellan01** , I think every _other_ poster understands the point you were trying to make with the 33% thing, which still stands even if the numbers aren’t correct (and they aren’t, but whatever), so I wouldn’t worry about it too much. Thanks. I can’t believe he can’t see that what the actual numbers are do not matter to the point I was making. He does seem intent in not having the OP discussed. Strange that. ---
**Author:** ![AdmiralCrunch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6f9a4e/32.png) [@AdmiralCrunch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AdmiralCrunch)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/38-of-households-pay-no-federal-income-tax-bad-for-democracy/504944/44 "2009-08-01T21:12:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Okay, that helps. Now I see your problem. I assumed you held that belief. That was wrong for me to do. My apologies. Thank you, that’s all I was after. > [@](#): > > I’ve said repeatedly that is was a simplistic formulation. I think you go to far though in saying it in “no way” reflects U.S. income tax reality. I hope you realize that my point had nothing to do with the degree to which hypothetical 33% income tax rate results in a third of one’s efforts going to the government. If not, I’ll ask you to read my posts over with a macro lens. And I’ve repeatedly said that my objection isn’t concerning your larger point. I just want simple confirmation that you know that it is impossible for someone in the so-called “33% tax bracket” to pay 33% of their income in income taxes, as any earned income under that cutoff is taxed at a lower rate. That’s why it “in no way” reflects reality, because it is impossible. And just to move things along and satisfy your quenching desire to discuss that actual point… drumroll… I don’t know. I have been presented with no information as to whether income tax paid has any effect on demand for government expenditures. I’ve got a gut feeling, but that isn’t really worth anything on a message board and I don’t care to do the research myself. Apparently, no one else cares enough either. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/38-of-households-pay-no-federal-income-tax-bad-for-democracy/504944/45 "2009-08-01T21:39:50Z")
> [@AdmiralCrunch](#): > > Thank you, that’s all I was after. Glad we got that straightened out. I really didn’t understand specifically what the problem was. > [@AdmiralCrunch](#): > > And I’ve repeatedly said that my objection isn’t concerning your larger point. I just want simple confirmation that you know that it is impossible for someone in the so-called “33% tax bracket” to pay 33% of their income in income taxes, as any earned income under that cutoff is taxed at a lower rate. That’s why it “in no way” reflects reality, because it is impossible. Sheeze! No, someone who is in the 33% tax bracket will not be paying 33% of their income to the government. I can’t believe you’re so hung up on this. It’s got nothing to do with my point. And I maintain that your “no way” is way to strong. > [@AdmiralCrunch](#): > > And just to move things along and satisfy your quenching desire to discuss that actual point… drumroll… I don’t know. I have been presented with no information as to whether income tax paid has any effect on demand for government expenditures. I’ve got a gut feeling, but that isn’t really worth anything on a message board and I don’t care to do the research myself. Apparently, no one else cares enough either. But don’t you have a point of view? Can’t you make a philosophical offering, with the understanding that your position might change as data and evidence might shed light?Make believe you’re one of the framers, and there is no data on which to build a position. What do you think is right, fair? ---
**Author:** ![AdmiralCrunch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6f9a4e/32.png) [@AdmiralCrunch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AdmiralCrunch)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/38-of-households-pay-no-federal-income-tax-bad-for-democracy/504944/46 "2009-08-01T22:41:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Sheeze! No, someone who is in the 33% tax bracket will not be paying 33% of their income to the government. I can’t believe you’re so hung up on this. It’s got nothing to do with my point. And I maintain that your “no way” is way to strong. I’m stressing this point because it’s a very simple aspect of the tax system. If you don’t understand very simple arguments, there is no reason to proceed to rather complex arguments, like the merits of the EITC and its effects on the overall government. > [@magellan01](#): > > But don’t you have a point of view? Can’t you make a philosophical offering, with the understanding that your position might change as data and evidence might shed light?Make believe you’re one of the framers, and there is no data on which to build a position. What do you think is right, fair? Of what value is a point of view without supporting evidence? Why do you care so much what I think when you should be looking to support your own opinion and convince others of its value? Thus far we have data on who pays how much in taxes, and then we have some time-traveling speculation of fairness and justice with no definitions. No one has connected the two. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/38-of-households-pay-no-federal-income-tax-bad-for-democracy/504944/47 "2009-08-02T03:22:32Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, now you’re going to follow me around to just piss? How about commenting on the OP/ You know, in the thread you found interesting enough to open and spend time with? Or did you just see my name as the latest contributor and come in here to try to get some for revenge for the bitch-slapping you got in our last exchange? > > But let me help you: why is it okay for some to work to contribute to the common good and others not? If you have an actual belief that you are being stalked, report it, (preferably with citations). Do not make the accusation in a Great Debates thread. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/38-of-households-pay-no-federal-income-tax-bad-for-democracy/504944/48 "2009-08-02T04:21:32Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > [Cite.](http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/numbers/displayatab.cfm?Docid=1973&DocTypeID=7) > > This trend does not look like it will reverse anytime soon; the premium to skill continues to increase which means that earnings will become more unequal over time. And the political ratchet of “progressive” policies appears to only go one way - new policies must cost the rich proportionally more or be branded “regressive.” How do the Bush tax cuts work under this so-called ratchet? > [@](#): > > Do you believe that there is a deleterious effect on government spending policy when a large portion of the electorate can vote for more services and not have to pay for them? Who have no stake in restricting the size of the government and every reason to increase it? If you don’t think this is currently a problem, what taxless percentage of the electorate would be sufficient to convince you that it is? When do the poor vote for new services again? That would be our elected representatives, who might see the poor every 2 or 6 years, but see their friendly neighborhood lobbyists a lot more often than that. I don’t think we have to worry about the rich not getting their voices heard, do you? > [@](#): > > In your response please note whether you already favor larger or smaller government, and (if larger) whether your answer would change if the percentage of government expenditure [continues to increase](http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2009/05/laissezfaire-eh.html) past your preferred level. However, I’m all in favor of the poor paying more in taxes, absolutely, as long as it is the result of an increase in their pay putting them into a higher bracket. I’m sure you’re not recommending the heartless and cruel policy of taking more from people who have so little. This has nothing to do with small government or big government, just equity. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/38-of-households-pay-no-federal-income-tax-bad-for-democracy/504944/49 "2009-08-03T00:26:02Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > However, I’m all in favor of the poor paying more in taxes, absolutely, as long as it is the result of an increase in their pay putting them into a higher bracket. I’m sure you’re not recommending the heartless and cruel policy of taking more from people who have so little. This has nothing to do with small government or big government, just equity. This is really the point. The rich pay an increasing share of taxes because they have an increasing share of the wealth. The minimum wage is low compared to it’s historical value and the difference between the top execs and average worker has never been so high. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/38-of-households-pay-no-federal-income-tax-bad-for-democracy/504944.md?page=2)