# 39 firearm-related deaths in the UK last year, firearm offences down 40% in the last decade **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 24, 2013, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209 "2013-01-24T10:43:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/21 "2013-01-24T17:48:37Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > I also hear people talk about better first-response times, better paramedic training, better surgical techniques, better hospitals, etc. > > I wonder how the attempted murder rate looks? If you read the article, its actually “gun crimes” that have dropped 40%, which I presume includes attempted murder. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/22 "2013-01-24T17:50:41Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > If you read the article, its actually “gun crimes” that have dropped 40%, which I presume includes attempted murder. Well, that’s what I get for not reading the article! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/23 "2013-01-24T17:59:10Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Homicides of all types are down by something like 50% in the last decade. Let’s see - 2002 the homicide rate was 1.5 (see graph below) In 2012 the homicide rate was [1.35](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jan/20/murder-rate-lowest-12-years) In my arithmetic, that’s a 10% reduction. Not quite the 50% you claim. And still higher than before the gun ban. Here is a graph of homicides in UK: [![](https://www.justfacts.com/images/guncontrol/england.png) ](https://www.justfacts.com/images/guncontrol/england.png) Isn’t it interesting that immediately after the gun ban in 1997 for the next 20 years the homicide rate went up? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/24 "2013-01-24T18:04:09Z")
Your arithmetic must be iffy because it hasn’t been 20 years since 1997. ETA: and no. There was [a single doctor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Shipman) who had upwards of 250 patient deaths switched to homicide in those years. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/25 "2013-01-24T18:07:20Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > ETA: and no. There was [a single doctor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Shipman) who had upwards of 250 patient deaths switched to homicide in those years. I guess you didn’t notice that the graph takes that into account and plots that differently. As for 20 years - yes, 10 years. So - in the UK homicide rate went up for 10 years after the 1997 gun ban (and is still higher today than it was then). Meantime in the US, without the gun ban, and with relaxation of CCW laws in a lot of states and an increase in gun ownership, since 1997 the homicide rate went down from 6.8 to 4.8 - 30% decrease. Interesting how that worked out, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/26 "2013-01-24T18:09:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Let’s see - 2002 the homicide rate was 1.5 (see graph below) > > In 2012 the homicide rate was [1.35](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jan/20/murder-rate-lowest-12-years) > > In my arithmetic, that’s a 10% reduction. Not quite the 50% you claim. And still higher than before the gun ban. Again, rates vs absolute numbers. Your first cite gives 1000 a decade ago vs 600 this year (the page I got my number from said 550). A 40% drop. But a decade obviously isn’t a good number to pick, since that ends up on the year of Shipman’s murder spree. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/27 "2013-01-24T18:16:41Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Again, rates vs absolute numbers. Your first cite gives 1000 a decade ago vs 600 this year (the page I got my number from said 550). A 40% drop. > > But a decade obviously isn’t a good number to pick, since that ends up on the year of Shipman’s murder spree. So, if you take Shipman’s murders out of the equation, the UK homicide rate dropped only 10% in the last decade (other countries’ rates including the US dropped quite a bit more), and is still higher today than it was before the gun ban. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/28 "2013-01-24T18:29:20Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > I don’t think any of this can be applied to the USA though. For whatever reasons guns have a real cultural significance and there are so many in private hands there’s simply nothing to be done about it. Yeah, exactly. One thing that really irritates me is the US debate using the UK as some sort of evidence or example - either pro or anti gun. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/29 "2013-01-24T18:32:17Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Isn’t it interesting that immediately after the gun ban in 1997 for the next 20 years the homicide rate went up? Why do you imagine that is? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/30 "2013-01-24T18:41:22Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Why do you imagine that is? 20 quatloos says it’s something to do with the criminals knowing that British subjects are defenceless. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/31 "2013-01-24T18:42:29Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Why do you imagine that is? Don’t know. Why do you think? Especially considering that at the same time in other countries (like in the US) homicide rates were dropping. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/32 "2013-01-24T18:47:31Z")
> [@](#): > > 39 firearm-related deaths in the UK last year Sounds pretty okay to me. Never seen a gun in private ownership and never want to. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/33 "2013-01-24T18:48:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Don’t know. Why do you think? Especially considering that at the same time in other countries (like in the US) homicide rates were dropping. Hey, it’s you who posited that it was “interesting”. It’s almost like different countries have different demographics, different population densities, different economies, different crime reporting standards, different social trends, different patterns of drug usage and demand. For a start. You aren’t under the impression that Scotland, England and Wales were heavily armed prior to the post-Dunblane handgun ban, are you? Because that would be wrong and stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/34 "2013-01-24T19:04:37Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Hey, it’s you who posited that it was “interesting”. It’s almost like different countries have different demographics, different population densities, different economies, different crime reporting standards, different social trends, different patterns of drug usage and demand. For a start. And yet, in all those different Western countries, almost uniformly, homicide rates were dropping while in UK they were rising after the 1997 gun ban. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/35 "2013-01-24T19:05:01Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > It’s almost like different countries have different demographics, different population densities, different economies, different crime reporting standards, different social trends, different patterns of drug usage and demand. This is why ‘England bans guns, so the U.S. needs to ban guns because England’s example proves the effectiveness’ and ‘In Switzerland everyone has a gun and they have a low crime rate, so everyone needs to be armed’ are not valid arguments IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/36 "2013-01-24T19:07:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And yet, in all those different Western countries, almost uniformly, homicide rates were dropping while in UK they were rising after the 1997 gun ban. So why do you think this was so? Do you think it was because of the 1997 gun ban, seeing as you mention it? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/37 "2013-01-24T19:10:33Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > This is why ‘England bans guns, so the U.S. needs to ban guns because England’s example proves the effectiveness’ and ‘In Switzerland everyone has a gun and they have a low crime rate, so everyone needs to be armed’ are not valid arguments IMO. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/38 "2013-01-24T19:17:53Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > So why do you think this was so? Do you think it was because of the 1997 gun ban, seeing as you mention it? I am stating a **fact**. Since I have no data to back my **opinion** , I won’t state it. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/39 "2013-01-24T19:46:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I am stating a **fact**. Since I have no data to back my **opinion** , I won’t state it. I was just curious why you mentioned 1997 so much, that’s all. It’s good that people don’t opine on things they don’t know about. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/40 "2013-01-24T19:51:59Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > I was just curious why you mentioned 1997 so much, that’s all. Because that was the year of the gun ban law. Do you think the politicians who passed it expected the homicide rate after it was instituted to go sharply up? Yet that’s what happened. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209.md?page=3)