# 39 firearm-related deaths in the UK last year, firearm offences down 40% in the last decade **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 24, 2013, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209 "2013-01-24T10:43:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/61 "2013-01-24T21:08:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Do check the post that the video was posted in response to. Terr, make your point if you have one. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/62 "2013-01-24T21:12:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Do check the post that the video was posted in response to. I did. What the fuck does Florida have to do with anything in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/63 "2013-01-24T21:13:58Z")
[www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn01940.pdf](http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn01940.pdf) Page 11. Total “firearm offences” in UK since 1990, by year. You can see that prior to the gun ban it fluctuated around 12,000. Immediately after the gun ban it shot up, peaked at 24,000, then started coming down and is still at around the same level. So I wonder how it is that you ban guns and the number of crimes committed with guns doubles? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/64 "2013-01-24T21:14:58Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > I did. What the fuck does Florida have to do with anything in this thread? It has to do with the question a poster asked. If you have a problem with that question, address the poster. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/65 "2013-01-24T21:16:59Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > I did. What the fuck does Florida have to do with anything in this thread? Calm down. I asked if it was OK in the USA to shoot people in the back as they run away - **Terr** was answering me on that one. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/66 "2013-01-24T21:20:32Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn01940.pdf](http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn01940.pdf) > > Page 11. Total “firearm offences” in UK since 1990, by year. > > You can see that prior to the gun ban it fluctuated around 12,000. Immediately after the gun ban it shot up, peaked at 24,000, then started coming down and is still at around the same level. > > So I wonder how it is that you ban guns and the number of crimes committed with guns doubles? Well, for one thing, banning guns means there is a whole new category of offences for people to be charged with. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/67 "2013-01-24T21:22:13Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Well, for one thing, banning guns means there is a whole new category of offences for people to be charged with. The table lists offences **“in which firearms were reported to have been used”**. Just having one is not such an offence. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/68 "2013-01-24T21:22:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It has to do with the question a poster asked. If you have a problem with that question, address the poster. That’s true, but that’s Florida. Who gives a fuck about Florida? Fancy answering any of the unanswered questions in this thread, the one about the UK? Use your own words, if you can. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/69 "2013-01-24T21:24:12Z")
(Apologies, Floridians) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/70 "2013-01-24T21:29:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The table lists offences **“in which firearms were reported to have been used”**. Just having one is not such an offence. Having read the document through now, I can see you’re correct here, but looking at the definition of ‘firearms offence’ in that document, I think the figures could quite reasonably be expected to fluctuate, as it includes things like crimes where a _concealed object presumed to be a firearm_ is involved. Also, this is the statistics for _recorded incidents_ - and in your linked document, it says: > [@](#): > > The method used for counting the number of firearms offences in England and Wales was changed on 1 April 1998 and, as a result, the reported number of offences has been seen to increase across some categories of offence. The number of recorded incidents for any category of crime, although it ideally should reflect the actual levels, is likely to vary depending on a variety of factors incuding public awareness and any particular campaigns focusing on specific crimes - it’s not a great stretch of the imagination that the police would be ‘cracking down’ on gun crimes immediately following the ban, and this would increase the number of recorded incidents. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/71 "2013-01-24T21:31:47Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Also, this is the statistics for _recorded incidents_ - and in your linked document, it says: I would have to see how that method was changed to evaluate whether the increase is due to the method or is real. There are also some things about how crimes are measured in the US vs UK that inflate US numbers vs. UK’s. In US, if someone is charged with murder, then the charge is reduced, it goes into stats as murder. In UK, the reductions in charges get removed from the stats. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/72 "2013-01-24T21:40:56Z")
In all honesty though, the one thing that increase almost certainly _cannot have been_ is a surge of armed crime against gun-deprived defenceless people, because guns, as a common mode of personal defence, were never part of the picture. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/73 "2013-01-24T21:51:42Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > Why? Do you have stats? I’m just curious how many of those deaths are shotguns then… Or if they even cause any real problems? > > Or did I just scare you with stories of my mum 😉 I’ve answered my own question: shotguns only account for 9% of gun crimes, and in fact replicas are used more than shotguns (23%). Rifles just 1%. However, when they are used against a person, they are more likely to be fired. With handguns this is 13%, while with shotguns 53%. I didn’t see anything about deaths, probably none. So I’m guessing the crimes are probably lots of farmers threatening naughty teenagers to get off their land or something. ---
**Author:** ![Boulter\_s\_Canary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Boulter\_s\_Canary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boulter_s_Canary)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/74 "2013-01-24T22:27:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576406/28-gun-crimes-committed-in-UK-every-day.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576406/28-gun-crimes-committed-in-UK-every-day.html) > > Norman Brennan, a policeman who is spokesman for the Victims of Crime Trust, said Government initiatives to tackle gun crime seemed to make no difference. > > “Children as young as 11 or 12 are carrying guns,” he said. “The sad reality is that it is becoming so routinely reported by the press that a child has been shot that the shock value has been eliminated.” I’d like to know what papers this guy is reading. I can’t remember the last time I saw a report that a child has been shot in my local paper (and no, I _don’t_ live in some remote rural parish…) ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/75 "2013-01-24T23:35:05Z")
I don’t really move in those circles but I’ve been led to believe that, while it’s fairly easy to buy a handgun, it’s much harder to get hold of ammunition. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/76 "2013-01-25T02:55:05Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Interesting. The population of the UK appears to be about 1/5 that of the U.S. One would expect the murder rate to be 1/5 or less, and not 1/4. UK murder rate = 1.2/million ([List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate) ) US murder rate = 4.8/million UK firearm related homicides = 0.04/million ([List of countries by firearm-related homicide rates - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate) ) US Firearm related homicides = 3.6/million ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/77 "2013-01-25T10:00:07Z")
> [@Boulter\_s\_Canary](#): > > I’d like to know what papers this guy is reading. I can’t remember the last time I saw a report that a child has been shot in my local paper (and no, I _don’t_ live in some remote rural parish…) The Victims of Crime Trust was an organisation chiefly concerned with being quoted in the media, as detailed [here](http://blog.matthewcain.co.uk/victims-of-crime-trust-mystery/). Not really worth paying attention to. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/78 "2013-01-25T10:25:22Z")
> [@Boulter\_s\_Canary](#): > > I’d like to know what papers this guy is reading. I can’t remember the last time I saw a report that a child has been shot in my local paper (and no, I _don’t_ live in some remote rural parish…) The last report I remember was a few years ago when a girl was shot in a corner shop in London as part of a drive-by shooting that went awry. Then there was the kid from Liverpool shot whilst on his bike about three years ago, again I think this was gang related and a mistake. I can’t remember any others. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/79 "2013-01-25T11:45:46Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > I don’t really move in those circles but I’ve been led to believe that, while it’s fairly easy to buy a handgun, it’s much harder to get hold of ammunition. All the evidence shows it is not at all easy to buy a firearm, see previously quoted sources. It is so difficult that the prices have tripled and ones that have been rented out and used are no longer disposed of. Note also from [p 41 of this report](http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110220105210/rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb0110.pdf) that in 2008-9 6000 of the 14000 reported firearm offenses were air-weapons not guns. With increasing gang problems it is no surprise that in absolute terms gun crimes might go up. We in Britain can look across the Atlantic and see what things would be like if guns were ubiquitous. But we like our kids unmassacred and we like our criminals to find it really hard to get guns. And we like to keep guns out of the country so that we can crack down on those that have them more easily. [Trident Unit operation](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16940160) > [@](#): > > More than 200 people have been arrested during raids across London by the Metropolitan Police’s new dedicated unit tackling gang crime. > > The Trident Gang Crime Command, which consists of about 1,000 officers, will monitor gang activity and work with London boroughs. > > The unit, thought to be the largest in the country, will have 19 dedicated gang crime task forces. > > More than 300 raids have been taking place across the city since dawn. > > The Met said it had made 213 arrests so far and executed 171 warrants. The operation involved about 1,300 officers. > > Officers also seized items including 1kg of heroin, cocaine, cannabis, firearms, ammunition, CS canisters, stolen mobile phones and £34,000 in cash. Look, I know some Americans find it hard to believe, but in the UK we don’t like guns. They aren’t fetish objects. We don’t sit around fantasising about UN black helicopters, we don’t worry about armed raiders breaking into our homes. We want guns off our streets and out of unlicensed private hands. We don’t want anyone owning handguns or semi-automatics. This is not a political issue. At the moment, thanks to reforms over the years, guns are expensive and very hard for criminals to get their hands on. They are so rare that there is a bibg rental market. The police are successfully cracking down on gangs, they have gone hard after armourers who convert deactivated weapons and sarting pistols. We’re even going hard after knife use. And yea - we by and large don’t think pursuing fleeing suspects and shooting them in the back should be legal. We have a huge leeway to using force to protect ourselves in the home, even excessive force. If I shot an intruder in the face with a shotgun I very much doubt I’d be prosecuted. As previously quoted - almost no one has been for years. Which is why the Tony Martin case keeps being waved around as if that supports rather than undermines the case for a gun free-for-all. We can see what guns for all has done in the USA. We want no part of it. ---
**Author:** ![Boulter\_s\_Canary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Boulter\_s\_Canary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boulter_s_Canary)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209/80 "2013-01-25T14:51:09Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > The last report I remember was a few years ago when a girl was shot in a corner shop in London as part of a drive-by shooting that went awry. Then there was the kid from Liverpool shot whilst on his bike about three years ago, again I think this was gang related and a mistake. I can’t remember any others. Thats the two I remember as well. Locally (Medway Towns) we have the occasional report of a stabbing (And these are pretty rare). I don’t think there has been a shooting as long as I have lived here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/39-firearm-related-deaths-in-the-uk-last-year-firearm-offences-down-40-in-the-last-decade/648209.md?page=5)