39 firearm-related deaths in the UK last year, firearm offences down 40% in the last decade

[chiroptera]

@lieu

Tagos, that’s exactly what I was thinking as I was reading the article. In the UK for a variety of reasons there still is something that can be done to restrict and deter proliferation. In the US the horse has left the barn already. The debate on control in one will have little resemblance to that in the other.

The Economist had a good editorial about this last year.

Too late

I live adjacent to a small US city of (last census count) 102 thousand people. There were 63 or 64 homicides, almost every one by gun. Plus at least one hunting-related “accidental” death in the county that I can recall.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Mangetout

Am I right in thinking that shooting a fleeing burglar in the back will likely land you in trouble in the USA too? I just want to check…

@Terr

In your home? No.

@Mangetout

OK, thanks. I guess you can shoot people as they run away in the USA after all. <shrug>

Not to hijack, but that’s utterly, utterly wrong. We do have something in most states called the Castle Doctrine, which says you have no duty to retreat from an intruder in your home. It doesn’t say anything about shooting an intruder who is already fleeing. It is available only to people who reasonably apprehend a danger of death or great bodily harm - people acting in self-defense, in other words.

The only exception is Florida’s Protection of Persons Act, which creates a non-rebuttable presumption that a person who illegally enters an occupied dwelling establishes a fear of danger or great bodily harm in the occupants regardless of whether it’s actually true. This is to be distinguished from its Stand Your Ground codification, which has been debated to death in the Trayvon Martin threads.

While removing the duty to retreat brings Florida in line with the majority rule, the conclusive presumption sets Florida apart from all other states because it contravenes an ancient and universally adopted principle that restricts the use of deadly force to an actual or threatened harm to persons. It does so not by eliminating the requirement of reasonable apprehension but through a conclusive presumption that automatically establishes it, regardless of whether it actually existed.

Daniel Michael, Florida’s Protection of Persons Bill, 43 Harv. J. on Legis. 199, 204 (2006)

Back to our discussion of UK gun policy.

[tagos]

@Boulter_s_Canary

Thats the two I remember as well.

Locally (Medway Towns) we have the occasional report of a stabbing (And these are pretty rare). I don’t think there has been a shooting as long as I have lived here.

With the ongoing emergence of an underclass is the UK since the 80’s guns have become more a feature of inter-gang rivalries on deprived estates. Knives even more so.

It is worrying to be sure. Worrying enough for it to be a major focus of police effort and one that looks like it’s being relatively successful because the problem is relatively small. I don’t shed any tears when scrotes like Duggan get shot by them.

[Boulter_s_Canary]

@tagos

With the ongoing emergence of an underclass is the UK since the 80’s guns have become more a feature of inter-gang rivalries on deprived estates. Knives even more so.

It is worrying to be sure. Worrying enough for it to be a major focus of police effort and one that looks like it’s being relatively successful because the problem is relatively small. I don’t shed any tears when scrotes like Duggan get shot by them.

Its tragic when innocent bystanders get in the firing line. Gangsters can shoot each other as much as they like as far as I’m concerned.

[mascaroni]

@tagos

All the evidence shows it is not at all easy to buy a firearm, see previously quoted sources. It is so difficult that the prices have tripled and ones that have been rented out and used are no longer disposed of.

Note also from p 41 of this report that in 2008-9 6000 of the 14000 reported firearm offenses were air-weapons not guns.

With increasing gang problems it is no surprise that in absolute terms gun crimes might go up. We in Britain can look across the Atlantic and see what things would be like if guns were ubiquitous. But we like our kids unmassacred and we like our criminals to find it really hard to get guns. And we like to keep guns out of the country so that we can crack down on those that have them more easily.

Trident Unit operation

Look, I know some Americans find it hard to believe, but in the UK we don’t like guns. They aren’t fetish objects. We don’t sit around fantasising about UN black helicopters, we don’t worry about armed raiders breaking into our homes.

We want guns off our streets and out of unlicensed private hands. We don’t want anyone owning handguns or semi-automatics. This is not a political issue. At the moment, thanks to reforms over the years, guns are expensive and very hard for criminals to get their hands on. They are so rare that there is a bibg rental market.

The police are successfully cracking down on gangs, they have gone hard after armourers who convert deactivated weapons and sarting pistols. We’re even going hard after knife use.

And yea - we by and large don’t think pursuing fleeing suspects and shooting them in the back should be legal. We have a huge leeway to using force to protect ourselves in the home, even excessive force. If I shot an intruder in the face with a shotgun I very much doubt I’d be prosecuted. As previously quoted - almost no one has been for years.

Which is why the Tony Martin case keeps being waved around as if that supports rather than undermines the case for a gun free-for-all.

We can see what guns for all has done in the USA. We want no part of it.

Just to clarify… I’m English. As English as Mum’s Apple Crumble…

As for the debate on U.S. gun ownership, my opinion holds about as much weight of that of an American regarding Naughty Swansea Ballboys. It’s none of my business.

I can’t cite for my assertion about ammunition, it’s obviously hearsay, but I’ve heard it from several independent sources.

That said, it may be irrelevant because in most areas over here people don’t tend to carry guns unless they intend to use them.

[mascaroni]

@Boulter_s_Canary

Thats the two I remember as well.

Locally (Medway Towns) we have the occasional report of a stabbing (And these are pretty rare). I don’t think there has been a shooting as long as I have lived here.

I’m from a nondescript market town a little over a quarter of the size of the Medway towns, but I can barely remember a year in the last twenty when there hasn’t been at least one shooting.

[Boulter_s_Canary]

@mascaroni

I’m from a nondescript market town a little over a quarter of the size of the Medway towns, but I can barely remember a year in the last twenty when there hasn’t been at least one shooting.

Blimey!:eek: Shotguns or handguns?

[mascaroni]

@Boulter_s_Canary

Blimey!:eek: Shotguns or handguns?

Mainly handguns, although one local armed robber turned murderer’s weapon of choice was a sawn off shotgun. Almost all the fatal shootings were related to drug dealing or (as I’ve heard on the grapevine) a feud between two extended Asian families.
That said, it’s hardly like the wild west and, having spent time working in The Medway, I feel a lot more relaxed here than I ever did in pubs in Gillingham or Rainham.
Rochester and Chatham are alright though… but the ‘Ship and Trades’ in midsummer always felt like Boundary Park on a cold January day…