# 4 Secret Service Agents decide to fight their terminations. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 23, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-secret-service-agents-decide-to-fight-their-terminations/622829 "2012-05-23T13:49:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-secret-service-agents-decide-to-fight-their-terminations/622829/1 "2012-05-23T13:49:31Z")
4 disgraced agents have withdrawn their resignations. I’m glad they decided to fight instead of resigning. The handling of this mess was clumsy. The White House and Obama got some bad press and they used a tank to roll over a few ants. They could have reassigned these agents to some other assignment within Treasury dept and not destroyed their livelihood. Federal Selective Service offers a lot of protections for Fed workers. There’s formal procedures and appeals for firing somebody. If an Agent had a spotless record of employment, then one error might not be enough to fire someone. Perhaps a written warning and suspension for a few weeks? \ They have a right to fight for their careers. Good luck! > **[4 Secret Service agents in hooker scandal challenge their dismissals](https://www.nydailynews.com/2012/05/23/4-secret-service-agents-in-hooker-scandal-challenge-their-dismissals/)** > > What happens in Cartagena was supposed to stay in Cartagena. Four former Secret Service agents implicated in the Colombia prostitution scandal last month are challenging their dismissals — sa… [http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/05/23/4-secret-service-employees-to-contest-dismissals-over-prostitute-scandal/](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/05/23/4-secret-service-employees-to-contest-dismissals-over-prostitute-scandal/) > [@](#): > > Four former Secret Service agents implicated in the Colombia prostitution scandal last month are challenging their dismissals — saying they’re getting thrown under the bus for behavior long tolerated at the agency, the Washington Post reported. > > The agents argue that an unwritten code allowed them to pick up women on the road — and some of the trysts never involved money, according to the report. > > Read more: [4 Secret Service agents in hooker scandal challenge their dismissals – New York Daily News](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/4-secret-service-agents-hooker-scandal-challenge-dismissals-article-1.1083029#ixzz1vhVlHcM8) ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-secret-service-agents-decide-to-fight-their-terminations/622829/2 "2012-05-23T16:16:34Z")
I have no knowledge as to whether a single offense of this nature is enough to warrant dismissal, but there’s a certain entertainment value in the argument, “You can’t fire me for this one offense, and I’ve done it lots of times!” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-secret-service-agents-decide-to-fight-their-terminations/622829/3 "2012-05-23T18:21:36Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > They could have reassigned these agents to some other assignment within Treasury dept and not destroyed their livelihood. The agents could have not done something incredibly stupid and destroyed their own livelihood. This is the kind of nonsense that I expect out of teenagers who get busted for staying out past curfew: it’s not their fault, it’s just that mom and dad are being unfair and besides they have stayed out late lots of times before. Unless they are arguing that they literally did not do what they are accused of doing, I have zero time for their childish claims that they should not be held to account for what they did. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-secret-service-agents-decide-to-fight-their-terminations/622829/4 "2012-05-23T18:27:23Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Unless they are arguing that they literally did not do what they are accused of doing, I have zero time for their childish claims that they should not be held to account for what they did. Well, it would be nice to see their employment contract. Does it have a “moral turpitude” clause? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-secret-service-agents-decide-to-fight-their-terminations/622829/5 "2012-05-23T18:46:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Well, it would be nice to see their employment contract. Does it have a “moral turpitude” clause? We’ve already done this here. Their security clearances require them to report all contact with foreign nationals beyond normal social interactions. Furthermore, sleeping with prostitutes would likely, but not necessarily, be cause for denying them clearances, if the clearing agency decides that such behavior could expose the agents to blackmail. I’m sure their employment contract requires them to be able to obtain and hold their security clearance. In jobs like that, losing a clearance almost always leads to loss of employment. When they resigned, they saved the government time and money. This is BS. I will agree that they’re probably being thrown under the bus for behavior that’s long been tolerated. That doesn’t make me feel any more sorry for them. They should have known better. ---
**Author:** ![gunnergoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e95f7d/32.png) [@gunnergoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gunnergoz)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-secret-service-agents-decide-to-fight-their-terminations/622829/6 "2012-05-24T04:49:12Z")
What galls me about this is that from the beginning it smelled of being a problem of culture within the organization, especially once it was revealed that two supervisors with 42 years combined experience were among those terminated. Things don’t just happen in organizations this tightly bound without a lot of people knowing about it, and invariably all the way up the chain to the very top. It is either tolerated or encouraged but clearly not discouraged or forbidden. To not have the heads rolling from the top down is what bothers me most. Not that the President knew, but surely some of his most senior professionals in Presidential protection must have known some of this has been going on for a long, long time. And nothing has been done about it until the cover was blown, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-secret-service-agents-decide-to-fight-their-terminations/622829/7 "2012-05-24T05:03:00Z")
These are the guys who were sacked for ungentlemanly behaviour? They were dismissed for making off without payment? ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-secret-service-agents-decide-to-fight-their-terminations/622829/8 "2012-05-24T13:31:15Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > 4 disgraced agents have withdrawn their resignations. > > I’m glad they decided to fight instead of resigning. The handling of this mess was clumsy. The White House and Obama got some bad press and they used a tank to roll over a few ants. They could have reassigned these agents to some other assignment within Treasury dept and not destroyed their livelihood. > > Federal Selective Service offers a lot of protections for Fed workers. There’s formal procedures and appeals for firing somebody. If an Agent had a spotless record of employment, then one error might not be enough to fire someone. Perhaps a written warning and suspension for a few weeks? > > \ They have a right to fight for their careers. Good luck! > [4 Secret Service agents in hooker scandal challenge their dismissals – New York Daily News](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/4-secret-service-agents-hooker-scandal-challenge-dismissals-article-1.1083029) > > [http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/05/23/4-secret-service-employees-to-contest-dismissals-over-prostitute-scandal/](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/05/23/4-secret-service-employees-to-contest-dismissals-over-prostitute-scandal/) uh, folks. they had their security clearances pulled. A clearance is issued by the Gov’t for the convenience of the Gov’t and held by the Gov’t. They can fight for their jobs, but there are very few jobs in their line of work that don’t require a clearance. It is over for them. Perhaps they are hoping that the Gov’t will pay them something to make the issue go away. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-secret-service-agents-decide-to-fight-their-terminations/622829/9 "2012-05-24T14:06:30Z")
I feel sorry for these guys in a way. But still, what they did was so unbelievably stupid and showed such poor judgement that IMO it probably should be a career ender. I mean it ranks right up there with nuclear plant operators snorting coke in the control room or a 747 flight crew having a drinking contest while in flight. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-secret-service-agents-decide-to-fight-their-terminations/622829/10 "2012-05-24T14:07:09Z")
Sorry but if one of your ‘brothers’ in the code of ongoing questionable conduct, is so sure of himself he thinks he can refuse to pay the girl, you all deserve to tumble, in my opinion, for sheer stupidity. I should think guarding the president requires some base level of smarts. Every agent involved in this, overtly, and by their own actions, falls far short, on that account, in my opinion. Go ahead and fight. I think they will deservedly lose. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-secret-service-agents-decide-to-fight-their-terminations/622829/11 "2012-05-24T14:16:15Z")
One important consideration is prostitution is legal in that country. Picking up a hooker is no different than ordering an expensive meal. It was all part of a nights entertainment. I’d feel much differently if the Agents were breaking the law. I’m sure there have been times when Fed employees have hired hookers where it is a considered a crime. But, that’s not the situation with this case. I wonder what would happen if a FBI agent or a state dept employee on vacation visited one of Nevada’s legal brothels? No crime is being committed. So why should he be fired? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-secret-service-agents-decide-to-fight-their-terminations/622829/12 "2012-05-24T14:23:08Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I wonder what would happen if a FBI agent on vacation visited one of Nevada’s legal brothels? No crime is being committed. So why should he be fired? IF he was on VACATION where it was LEGAL and he TOLD his wife about it and didn’t CARE if everybody knew it I wouldn’t have much of a problem with it. But thats not what went down. And as far as security type stuff, legal isnt the only consideration. Security folks also don’t want you doing stuff that could lead you into being blackmailed to do bad things Thats why things like gambling/money problems, drug/alchohol abuse, being homosexual (in the past at least), and visiting prostitutes without the wife knowing are considered for issuing and keeping security clearances. I knew someone with clean record. But they could not get a security clearance because their dad was a MIA pilot in Vietmam. That person was ripe for being blackmailed and therefore could not get a clearance. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-secret-service-agents-decide-to-fight-their-terminations/622829/13 "2012-05-24T14:25:14Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I wonder what would happen if a FBI agent or a state dept employee on vacation visited one of Nevada’s legal brothels? The same damn thing, I would hope. > [@aceplace57](#): > > No crime is being committed. So why should he be fired? Situations like these put people in charge of Presidential security in a blackmail position. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-secret-service-agents-decide-to-fight-their-terminations/622829/14 "2012-05-24T16:22:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Four former Secret Service agents implicated in the Colombia prostitution scandal last month are challenging their dismissals — saying they’re getting thrown under the bus for behavior long tolerated at the agency, the Washington Post reported. > > The agents argue that an unwritten code allowed them to pick up women on the road — and some of the trysts never involved money, according to the report. Speaking from experience, arguing that other people got away with breaking the same rule will never save you. I saw plenty of people try this defense and it never worked. The agency will just say that the decision at your hearing is based solely on whether or not you broke the rules. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-secret-service-agents-decide-to-fight-their-terminations/622829/15 "2012-05-24T18:38:50Z")
I thought that they resigned. Is there really such a thing as 'withdrawing a resignation" once it is accepted? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-secret-service-agents-decide-to-fight-their-terminations/622829/16 "2012-05-24T19:38:37Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > One important consideration is prostitution is legal in that country. Picking up a hooker is no different than ordering an expensive meal. It was all part of a nights entertainment. > > I’d feel much differently if the Agents were breaking the law. I’m sure there have been times when Fed employees have hired hookers where it is a considered a crime. But, that’s not the situation with this case. Doesn’t matter. The ethical standards for Federal employees – especially those on TDY – doesn’t change because of what is legal in what country. Just because a government worker finds themselves in Amsterdam doesn’t mean that Uncle Sam cannot fire them for drug use. ---
**Author:** ![Surly\_Chick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Surly\_Chick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surly_Chick)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-secret-service-agents-decide-to-fight-their-terminations/622829/17 "2012-05-24T22:11:09Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Sorry but if one of your ‘brothers’ in the code of ongoing questionable conduct, is so sure of himself he thinks he can refuse to pay the girl, you all deserve to tumble, in my opinion, for sheer stupidity. Ninety-five percent of the Secret Service agents I know (and I know quite a few) think so highly of themselves that he undoubtedly felt that the hooker should pay **him** … ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-secret-service-agents-decide-to-fight-their-terminations/622829/18 "2012-05-25T02:27:28Z")
And therein lies the problem. You’re so into your own self importance you don’t think you have to really pay the girl, you’re not fit to guard the president. You tinker with doing the honorable thing, but then after a few days, your puffed up self starts thinking, “Fuck that Shit”, and you sue somebody. Still unfit in my opinion. Some of them didn’t have to pay the girls? Or some of them refused and the girls didn’t know what to do about it? Thank God one of them had the ovaries to speak up! ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-secret-service-agents-decide-to-fight-their-terminations/622829/19 "2012-05-25T04:48:29Z")
To paraphrase Sam Kinison, “These guys should all end up as night managers of a ‘Wendys’ somewhere”. Fuck them. I hope they lose and are charged court fees. Douch-bags. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-secret-service-agents-decide-to-fight-their-terminations/622829/20 "2012-05-25T12:32:19Z")
They have a right to fight for their careers. I don’t think they will or should get them back, and by fighting this, any background check a future employer does is now going to mark them not only as stupid enough to sleep with hookers because “everyone does it” but then sue their employer when they get caught. Plus they’ll have the legal bills. Stupid three times. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-secret-service-agents-decide-to-fight-their-terminations/622829.md?page=2)