# 4 yrs. of widespread wiretaps, torture, infiltrations. Domestic Al-Q caught:1 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 26, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-yrs-of-widespread-wiretaps-torture-infiltrations-domestic-al-q-caught-1/337269 "2005-12-26T18:46:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-yrs-of-widespread-wiretaps-torture-infiltrations-domestic-al-q-caught-1/337269/101 "2005-12-31T23:39:08Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > ???Where did I smear anyone??? > [@Sam Stone](#): > > What will be interesting to see is whether the court started rejecting these because the Bush administration was asking for something very abnormal, or whether the court was acting in partisan fashion. Without even a hypothetical proposal of how the court could be acting in an unethical way, as you have been requested, that is a smear right there. > [@](#): > > You guys have to cut back on the caffeine or something. If that’s the highest level you can operate on, this is the wrong forum. > [@](#): > > And yes, I’m aware that only 4 were rejected. But hundreds were modified or sent back for changes. That kind of belies the, “It’s quick, easy, and fun!” spin that we’re getting about the FISA court. It isn’t the FISA court’s conduct in question here. To try to shift the topic from the conduct of the administration making the requests to the conduct of the referees is to smear the referees. But “it will be interesting to see” if you can provide any basis, any whatsoever, for your inference that the FISA court’s conduct is in any way motivated by partisanship, as you have suggested. I don’t think we need to wait any longer to see, do we? You know what you did as well as the rest of us. Take responsibility for it, okay? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-yrs-of-widespread-wiretaps-torture-infiltrations-domestic-al-q-caught-1/337269/102 "2006-01-01T04:50:51Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Why does the rule of law mean nothing to you people? This is a rhetorical question, right? I mean, we are talking about people who believe the law is there for them to debauch. It is useful to them only as a guide for the more effective generation of hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-yrs-of-widespread-wiretaps-torture-infiltrations-domestic-al-q-caught-1/337269/103 "2006-01-02T01:57:26Z")
If the NSA’s job is to seek out foreign enemy’s who have infiltrated our open borders it shouldn’t even be a discussion that we monitor them during a time of war I fear I have been lax in maintaining the thrust of the thread, as t were; and your facile reference forces me to ask how you reconcile or otherwise explain the following: Let us deconstruct the open border qustion: ``` compare ``` a undocumented worker/dependents dedicatd al-q terrorist motivation:pick lettuce blow self & others to heaven/hell obstacles:border, desert, minutemen ditto estimated successful to date:6 million ? caught ttrying daily: 2-300 caught trying ever:1 busted in country daily:2-300 0 successfully employed daily:10,000+(?) succcessfully terrorizing daily 0 You will not, I hope, pretend that viogilience is prtecting us better from bloodthirsty tetrrtorists than it is from ambitrious lationos. So, where then the captures or incidents or roundups or any fucing thing on EITHER side of the enforcemnt issue? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-yrs-of-widespread-wiretaps-torture-infiltrations-domestic-al-q-caught-1/337269/104 "2006-01-02T02:01:06Z")
well, there’s an argument for preview–there were big spaces in my chart originally. It’s supposed to be two columns Just imagine two columns and it will make more sense ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-yrs-of-widespread-wiretaps-torture-infiltrations-domestic-al-q-caught-1/337269/105 "2006-01-07T07:02:39Z")
Evan Thomas on Hardball, says much the same thing as the op–where’s the beef? “THOMAS: … It’s such a fascinating question, because you would think after over four years, more than the length of World War II, we would know about some great operation where they thwarted an attack. And instead you get this list that the president trots out, which is pretty thin gruel. It’s a bunch of mokes (ph), basically, in Lackawanna and places like that, who are—you can’t—and so, what have we actually done?” ---
**Author:** ![Deeperconscience](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f04885/32.png) [@Deeperconscience](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeperconscience)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-yrs-of-widespread-wiretaps-torture-infiltrations-domestic-al-q-caught-1/337269/106 "2006-01-08T04:30:13Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Does anyone in this thread seriously believe that there was never any terrorism in the US _before_ 9/11? Or that all that’s needed to stop it forever and ever is pure virtuous effort by law enforcement and intelligence agencies? > > The only thing 9/11 did was remove the delusional cocoon that some Americans had held, that the repercussions of their past foreign policy decisions wouldn’t affect them at all. Using 9/11 as a bogeyman to turn the nation into a newfangled police state makes as much sense as using hurricane Katrina as an excuse to move everyone into huge underground warrens, where we’ll all be safe from the ill effects of bad weather. it definatly made bigger justification for starting wars in islamic countries. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-yrs-of-widespread-wiretaps-torture-infiltrations-domestic-al-q-caught-1/337269/107 "2006-01-08T05:02:11Z")
> [@Deeperconscience](#): > > it definatly made bigger justification for starting wars in islamic countries. and, let us not ignore the widespread economic benefits that were justified, such as the small business loan for the north dakota dog groomer that came from Homeland Security funding. I believe this proves that our government watchdogs are deadly serious about the threat from slavering salafists. query:if that is all as seriously as THEY take the threat, why should we believe it is serious? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-yrs-of-widespread-wiretaps-torture-infiltrations-domestic-al-q-caught-1/337269/108 "2006-01-17T15:45:18Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Please tell me that was written tongue-in-cheek. > > To use your own analogy - > > You’re standing next to a pile of tiger shit, with tracks all over the place. And you’re claiming there are no tigers. I really wonder what will be said when one bites you in the ass. I got your tigers right here, pal… ASHINGTON, Jan. 16 - In the anxious months after the Sept. 11 attacks, the National Security Agency began sending a steady stream of telephone numbers, e-mail addresses and names to the F.B.I. in search of terrorists. The stream soon became a flood, requiring hundreds of agents to check out thousands of tips a month But virtually all of them, current and former officials say, led to dead ends or innocent Americans. [http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/17/politics/17spy.html?hp&ex=1137560400&en=998d7190aee080f7&ei=5094&partner=homepage](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/17/politics/17spy.html?hp&ex=1137560400&en=998d7190aee080f7&ei=5094&partner=homepage) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-yrs-of-widespread-wiretaps-torture-infiltrations-domestic-al-q-caught-1/337269/109 "2006-01-17T16:00:45Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > I got your tigers right here, pal… > > ASHINGTON, Jan. 16 - In the anxious months after the Sept. 11 attacks, the National Security Agency began sending a steady stream of telephone numbers, e-mail addresses and names to the F.B.I. in search of terrorists. The stream soon became a flood, requiring hundreds of agents to check out thousands of tips a month > > But virtually all of them, current and former officials say, led to dead ends or innocent Americans. > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/17/politics/17spy.html?hp&ex=1137560400&en=998d7190aee080f7&ei=5094&partner=homepage](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/17/politics/17spy.html?hp&ex=1137560400&en=998d7190aee080f7&ei=5094&partner=homepage) From the same cite: > [@](#): > > Intelligence officials disagree with any characterization of the program’s results as modest, said Judith A. Emmel, a spokeswoman for the office of the director of national intelligence. Ms. Emmel cited a statement at a briefing last month by Gen. Michael V. Hayden, the country’s second-ranking intelligence official and the director of the N.S.A. when the program was started. > > “I can say unequivocally that we have gotten information through this program that would not otherwise have been available,” General Hayden said. The White House and the F.B.I. declined to comment on the program or its results. > > The differing views of the value of the N.S.A.'s foray into intelligence-gathering in the United States may reflect both bureaucratic rivalry and a culture clash. The N.S.A., an intelligence agency, routinely collects huge amounts of data from across the globe that may yield only tiny nuggets of useful information; the F.B.I., while charged with fighting terrorism, retains the traditions of a law enforcement agency more focused on solving crimes. I guess it depends on your perspective. Prevention vs prosecution. It helps to read more than the headlines… ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-yrs-of-widespread-wiretaps-torture-infiltrations-domestic-al-q-caught-1/337269/110 "2006-01-17T16:41:32Z")
> [@](#): > I read their comment and gave it the weight that any ass-covering generality deserves in the face of the discovery that they’ve been chasing their tails per the FBI. I wouldn’t expect them to cop to their bullshit–But I submit to you that a more credible asessment would be one that came PROACTIVELY, as part of a regular or even special review, as opposed to a coerced response to an embarassing factoid that was not put out by the NSA itself but seems to have beenj an FBI sniper shot. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-yrs-of-widespread-wiretaps-torture-infiltrations-domestic-al-q-caught-1/337269/111 "2006-01-18T19:54:59Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Please tell me that was written tongue-in-cheek. > > To use your own analogy - > > You’re standing next to a pile of tiger shit, with tracks all over the place. And you’re claiming there are no tigers. I really wonder what will be said when one bites you in the ass. I take it from your silence that you think the New York Times Editorial of this morning describes a junglefull of tigers, only barely kept at snarling distance by our heroic leader. “About the only result the administration has been able to dredge up on behalf of the spying program is the claim that the information it gained helped disrupt two plots: one to destroy the Brooklyn Bridge and one to detonate fertilizer bombs in London. But officials in Washington and Britain disputed the connection. And that plot to cut down the Brooklyn Bridge with a blowtorch has been trotted out so many times that it would be comical if the issue were not so serious.” > **[Opinion | Spying on Ordinary Americans (Published 2006)](https://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/18/opinion/spying-on-ordinary-americans.html)** > > In times of extreme fear, American leaders have sometimes scrapped civil liberties in the name of civil protection. It's only later that the country can see that the choice was a false one and that citizens' rights were sacrificed to carry out... ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-yrs-of-widespread-wiretaps-torture-infiltrations-domestic-al-q-caught-1/337269/112 "2006-01-22T00:56:13Z")
Well,maybe we only caught a couple of terrorists, but we got lots of good stuff anyway… [http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/006585.php#mor](http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/006585.php#mor) But the sources said that on dozens of occasions Cheney would, upon learning the identity of the individual, instruct the NSA to continue monitoring specific Americans caught in the wiretaps if he thought more information would be revealed, which crossed the line into illegal territory. Cheney advised President Bush of what had turned up in the raw NSA reports, said one former White House official who worked on counterterrorism related issues. “What’s really disturbing is that some of those people the vice president was curious about were people who worked at the White House or the State Department,” one former counterterrorism official said. “There was a real feeling of paranoia that permeated from the vice president’s office and I don’t think it had anything to do with the threat of terrorism. I can’t say what was contained in those taps that piqued his interest. I just don’t know.” [emphasis mine] An NSA spokesperson would not comment for this story. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/4-yrs-of-widespread-wiretaps-torture-infiltrations-domestic-al-q-caught-1/337269.md?page=5)