# 41 Shots... Not guilty... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 26, 2000, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/41-shots-not-guilty/4544 "2000-02-26T19:09:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![G.B.H.Hornswoggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c67d28/32.png) [@G.B.H.Hornswoggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G.B.H.Hornswoggler)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2000, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/41-shots-not-guilty/4544/41 "2000-02-28T19:52:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by PunditLisa: > **I do not think the 4 policemen intended to _murder_ an innocent man. It was a tragic accident. Should they lose their jobs? Absolutely. Should they go to jail for second degree murder? No.** I agreed with most of your post, but not that first rhetorical question. Do you really think that cops should lose their jobs [begin generalizing wildly] over a mistake? [end generalizing wildly] What kind of police would that leave us with? (Hint: those who never do anything remotely likely to put them into danger and those who’ve just started on the job.) How big a mistake, then? Sure, we could all say “If you shot a guy who turned out later to be innocent, you’re out,” but how can that actually affect a cop’s behavior at the scene? What about just wounding a guy? Would 36 shots be OK? 22? 5? The bottom line is that these are four guys who had some of the toughest jobs in the world (not just NYC cops, but part of an elite plainclothes street crime unit under a lot of political pressure to catch a serial rapist) and who fucked up. As far as I’ve heard, this is the only time any of them have fucked up in a major way. Yeah, when cops fuck up people can die, and when most of the rest of us fuck up, our companies just lose money. That’s the way life is. And, hey, did anyone else notice that Satan lobbed an incendiary comment into a crowded Pit and then didn’t come back… * * * …but when you get blue, and you’ve lost all your dreams, there’s nothing like a campfire and a can of beans! ---
**Author:** ![hightechburrito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f6c823/32.png) [@hightechburrito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hightechburrito)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2000, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/41-shots-not-guilty/4544/42 "2000-02-28T20:41:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Someone mentioned that cops should come from the community they patrol. Good. I think black officers should be more represented in black communities. \*\* In my opinion, this is a horrible idea. What do you think would happen if a cop wound up living next door to the drunk that he arrested the night before? Cops have families to look out for as well. ---
**Author:** ![nebuli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/0ea827/32.png) [@nebuli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nebuli)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2000, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/41-shots-not-guilty/4544/43 "2000-02-28T21:16:00Z")
Majormd, responding to my proposal re police being from the precincts they patrol, said: > [@](#): > > That’s a great idea in theory. But in practice it’s another thing. The very neighborhoods most in need of community policing are the same ones that no middle-class person, including a cop, wants to raise his or her family in. > > In the 1980’s, Washington DC instituted a policy requiring all district employees to live in the District. For every cop/fireman/teacher who reluctantly moved their families from the 'burbs into DC, 1 or 2 quit working for the District & took similar jobs out in the suburbs. And, I seriously doubt that any of them moved to Anacostia or other slum areas. John John said: > [@](#): > > Someone mentioned that cops should come from the community they patrol. Good. I think black officers should be more represented in black communities. NYPD can, if it wanted to, move the present black membership of officers to patrol those communities. Do you see any problems with that? It is what black people have clamored for for decades, but if they got that I think they might yell that the white officers got the “cushy” jobs. See? Damned if you do and damned if you don’t. To clarify, I was not proposing that current cops be forced to move into inner city areas, nor that current cops be reassigned on a racial basis to better reflect the demographics of the neighborhoods. I was proposing that in the future, hiring be done on a precinct by precinct basis, with the pool of applicants restricted to residents of the precinct [possibly allowing something like 20-25% from outside]. Those hired from the restricted local pool would have to sign a contract agreeing to remain within the precinct for a specified minimum time [4 to 5 years?]. Would this likely lead to the hiring of some candidates with lesser credentials than at present? Yes. Would this require a rather radical change in current practice? Yes [and am I someone who usually shuns radical solutions? Again, yes]. Am I sure my proposal would be an improvement? Not at all. But the current state of relations and mistrust between minority communities and police is so bad that I believe it is one of the most serious longterm problems facing this country. Something must be done to try to improve the situation. Hightechburrito, the scenario you brought up does still occur, even under the present system some police are from the neighborhoods. In the past, before standardized civil service tests and modern transportation, police were usually from the areas they patrolled. In the 19th century, many neighborhoods in big cities were as, or more, dangerous than today but the police were drawn from the same immigrant groups as the criminals. In fact, I believe that was a major factor in assimilation and turning formerly high-crime groups into law-abiding citizens. GLWasteful said: > [@](#): > > Mr Z, I don’t think that Diallo fought against the cops. He reached for his wallet. Something that I have done far too many times to count. The difference is that I have never been shot 19 times. I imagine that you have done the same thing without being shot, too. I can’t speak for Mr. Z, but I find it hard to imagine that too many people would do that often. I **always** keep my hands away from my body and in plan view if stopped by a police officer. If I have to get something from my wallet or glove compartment I always tell the officer what I am going to do and then slowly do it- and I’m a white guy in a business suit. The police are not mind readers; those situations are inherently volatile, and as others have said already, citizens have an obligation to use some common sense. That is not intended to be blaming the victim in this case. Clearly, nobody deserves to die for momentary brainlock, but if we can keep reinforcing the idea of proper behavior when stopped by the police perhaps some future tragedies will be averted. DaAce said: > [@](#): > > As far as I’ve heard, this is the only time any of them have fucked up in a major way. I believe one of the officers had shot and killed someone in a previous incident, but I don’t have the details. Finally, re our pal’s OP: from reading this thread I would say he either owes the jury a big apology, or many of us posters a “Fuck You.” ---
**Author:** ![InkBlot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5e925/32.png) [@InkBlot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InkBlot)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2000, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/41-shots-not-guilty/4544/44 "2000-02-28T23:52:00Z")
I probably don’t want to ask this, but regarding this post: > [@](#): > > **dhanson** If you want to get enraged over bad police behaviour, there are lots more egregious examples - > How about the sniper that shot Randy Weaver’s wife while she was standing in a doorway holding her infant, who was also killed by the bullet? > > A few years ago there was a case where a SWAT team thought that an armed and highly dangerous fugitive was in a motel room, so they fired THROUGH THE DOOR without warning, killing an innocent man sleeping in his bed. I won’t even comment on the whole Waco/ATF situation, they’re still sorting that out in the courts now. But do you have more information/links to information on these other stories you mentioned? Who was the sniper after? Why? What was the SWAT team really after, and what made them fire first? There is no justification in this country for a SWAT team to begin firing blindly through a door merely on the suspicion of a person’s presence. There may be something to be enraged about there, but as this thread shows jumping to conculsions isn’t helpful. Quite a few people seem to have changed their opinions during the course of this thread. * * * “Stercus, stercus, stercus, moritus sum!” ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/41-shots-not-guilty/4544/45 "2000-02-29T01:09:00Z")
Inkblot: I’ll have to research the SWAT incident more - I read about it a few years ago. As for Randy Weaver’s wife… Do a web search for “Ruby Ridge” or “Randy Weaver” and you’ll find plenty. The officer who shot his wife (I think FBI, but might have been ATF) was reprimanded, and that’s about it. Basically, the police staged a siege of his cabin, went way overboard, and killed several people, including his innocent wife and her infant child. One of the officers was also killed, as I recall. Later, Weaver was acquitted of the charges they used as justification for the raid. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/41-shots-not-guilty/4544/46 "2000-02-29T01:11:00Z")
Inkblot: I’ll have to research the SWAT incident more - I read about it a few years ago. As for Randy Weaver’s wife… Do a web search for “Ruby Ridge” or “Randy Weaver” and you’ll find plenty. The officer who shot his wife (I think FBI, but might have been ATF) was reprimanded, and that’s about it. Basically, the police staged a siege of his cabin, went way overboard, and killed several people, including his innocent wife and her infant child. One of the officers was also killed, as I recall. Later, Weaver was acquitted of the charges they used as justification for the raid. Ironically, one of their justifications for shooting into the house was that they didn’t want to use tear gas because it was potentially lethal to children and infants. Later, this same agency would indiscriminately fire the same brand of tear gas into the Waco buildings, even though they knew there were dozens of children inside. ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/41-shots-not-guilty/4544/47 "2000-02-29T08:03:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Mr.Zambezi: > > \*\*Oh, for the love of Pete. YOu bleeding heart bastards (re: the OP) spend half of your time arguing that we don’t need the 2nd amendment because the police are here to protect us and the other half complaining that the police are murderers. \*\* You are definitely skating on thin ice, Zamboni. Do not profess to think what I think about gun control or the bleeding status of my heart. I hate whiny liberals as much as I hate dickheaded conservative fuckers - they’re both not living in rreality. You don’t know shit if you think that I am against people protecting themselves. For example, if Diallo had a gun, at least the cops would have had a good reason to shoot at him over three dozen times! These police ARE murderers, thugs in the finest tradition of a fascist shithead mayor. I LIVED in NYC for most of my life. I KNOW tons of people there still and talk to them frequently. This IS a tragedy, and maybe the cops didn’t diserve 1st degree murder, but being let off scott free? I don’t think so. And trust me - Guilliani will give them medals for upholding his personal brand of justice. > [@](#): > > \*\*My wife works in a jail and the cops are continuously gettling hassled for roughing up “victims” who resist arrest.These guys fight against the cops, shout profanities and try to punch the cops They generally get injured by struggling against a hold or by trying to get out of their cuffs \*\* Why don’t the cops shoot at them 41 times then? I mean, if a guy reaching for his wallet gets 41 shots, I think if those guys really ARE fighting can have 50 or more shots at them. That is the way the system works now, isn’t it? How about sticking a broomstick up someone’s ass while you’re at it? That also is something that is well within “reasonable force” for the NYPD under der mayor. You’re comparing convicted criminals who are fighting people they know are cops to an innocent man who was not told this important bit of information until the split second before they pulled their truggers 41 times. Think about it, asshole. [quote] **How about this, when the cops are arrresting you COMPLY! What type of glue sniffing moron makes quick movements, fights against the cops or refuses to obey their commands?[./quote]** Better yet, have the cops identify themselves as cops immeediately and not say “We’re cops” a split second before they blast 41 shots at a guy reaching for his fucking wallet. * * * Yer pal, Satan ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/41-shots-not-guilty/4544/48 "2000-02-29T13:22:00Z")
Da Ace, I think the four policemen should lose their jobs because; a) it may placate the people of the community to some degree; b) a good portion of the community they serve has no confidence in their ability to do that job properly; and c) that angry community may see the four policemen as moving targets. I believe in my heart that it was an accident. Accident or not, they still killed an innocent man. A driver may run a red light and accidentally kill someone. I don’t think that driver ought to go to jail, but I think their license ought to be taken away. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/41-shots-not-guilty/4544/49 "2000-02-29T14:06:00Z")
A couple of points. 1. They saw a man in a doorway acting in a suspicious, not threatening, manner and the four of them approach him with guns drawn?? If I lived in that neighborhood, I would assume that they were thugs, badges or no, and try to get away! Do they actually believe that we could tell they were plainclothes police by the color of their aura or something? 2. They say that he reached back to get his wallet, then spun around as if he had a gun. Now, try to imagine that you are black, four large white men approach you in the middle of the night with their weapons pointed at you. Can you think of any reason, what so fucking ever, why you would do something that stupid? ---
**Author:** ![cleosia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@cleosia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cleosia)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/41-shots-not-guilty/4544/50 "2000-02-29T15:10:00Z")
In reply to Sam Stone > [@](#): > > Ironically, one of their justifications for shooting into the house was that they didn’t want to use tear gas because it was potentially lethal to children and infants. Later, this same agency would indiscriminately fire the same brand of tear gas into the Waco buildings, even though they knew there were dozens of children inside. The Ruby Ridge incident was the FBI but at Waco, while there was an FBI presence, I think it was more under the direction of the ATF. * * * Bitch by Birth ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Zambezi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Mr.Zambezi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Zambezi)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/41-shots-not-guilty/4544/51 "2000-02-29T17:50:00Z")
[quote] Originally posted by Satan: \*\* [QUOTE] Originally posted by Mr.Zambezi: [quote] You are definitely skating on thin ice, Zamboni.[/qoute] no joking, that was very witty I don’t think so. And trust me - Guilliani will give them medals for upholding his personal brand of justice. > [@](#): > > Why don’t the cops shoot at them 41 times then? I mean, if a guy reaching for his wallet gets 41 shots, I think if those guys really ARE fighting can have 50 or more shots at them. That is the way the system works now, isn’t it? 1 shot, 41 shots, I think that the fact that the cops shot 41 times lends credence to the argument that they were frightened for their life. One shot to the back of the head would have been suspicious. 41 shots sprayed all over the place seems in line with their story. > [@](#): > > How about sticking a broomstick up someone’s ass while you’re at it? That also is something that is well within “reasonable force” for the NYPD under der mayor. specious argument. Different cops, different situation and a wild assumption about the mayor. I do not ever want to see a police state, but diallo was just plain stupid. even if he thought the cops were armed thugs, he should have kept his hands out of his pockets. in fact, he should have been more cautious if he thought that they weren’t cops. 4 armed thugs confront me so I whip out my wallet? does that make any sense? > [@](#): > > . Think about it, asshole. **you** think about it moron. “look, there are four armed guys following me. I think I will reach in my pocket, and make sudden motions.” I do not think that the state should have the power to kill citizens with impunity, but I do recognize plain stupidity for what it is. Damn, and I agreed with everything you had said up till that last post. DAMN YOU SATAN! ## oh, well, I guess that is kind of redundant. “The robbed that smile, Steal something from the thief.” —WS, Othello I.III.204 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Zambezi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Mr.Zambezi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Zambezi)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/41-shots-not-guilty/4544/52 "2000-02-29T17:52:00Z")
hell is up with this site? I was sure I got my html codes right! ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/41-shots-not-guilty/4544/53 "2000-02-29T20:28:00Z")
I thought the FBI took over from the ATF soon after the standoff started. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/41-shots-not-guilty/4544/54 "2000-02-29T22:39:00Z")
> [@](#): > > For example, if Diallo had a gun, at least the cops would have had a good reason to shoot at him over three dozen times! Ahhh, and that is the crux of it, isn’t it? _If_ he would have had a gun, they would have been JUSTIFIED in shooting him. Now, when do you propose they determine whether or not it is a gun he’s pulling out? AFTER he starts shooting? Had they known in advance it was a wallet he was reaching for, I daresay an innocent man would still be alive today. But they didn’t. Which is why it was a tragic accident and not murder. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2000, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/41-shots-not-guilty/4544/55 "2000-03-01T02:41:00Z")
Dammmit to fucking Hell!! Why did four plainsclothes cops approach a suspicious, NOT dangerous, situation with their guns drawn and pointing at a person they had no reason what-so-fucking-ever to consider dangerous, besides the fact that he was black and looking around? How can anyone with half a mind believe that, when approached by four large white men holding semi-automatic weapons, he reached around and whipped his wallet out as if it were a gun? How can anyone believe that the only way police should use their weapons is to fire as fast as fucking possible until the gun is emptied, aiming be damned? I repeat, they were NOT approaching a suspect with their guns drawn. IMHO, almost anything he would have done would have gotten him shot, because they had already determined that he was guilty of something by their actions. ---
**Author:** ![Andy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aeb1de/32.png) [@Andy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2000, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/41-shots-not-guilty/4544/56 "2000-03-01T13:37:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Why did four plainsclothes cops approach a **suspicious** , NOT dangerous, situation with their guns drawn and pointing at a person they had **no reason** what-so-fucking-ever to **consider dangerous** So, slythe, is the implication here that if you approach someone described as suspicious, you cannot and should not suspect that they are dangerous? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2000, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/41-shots-not-guilty/4544/57 "2000-03-01T13:40:00Z")
IF the suspicion is that the man is black and looking around, damn straight! No way in hell is that reason enough for four cops to draw their weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Andy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aeb1de/32.png) [@Andy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2000, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/41-shots-not-guilty/4544/58 "2000-03-01T14:04:00Z")
> [@](#): > > IF the suspicion is that the man is black and looking around, damn straight! No way in hell is that reason enough for four cops to draw their weapons. Wouldn’t they know, rather than suspect, that the guy was black and looking around? So what were their suspicions? That he might have a wallet in his pocket? ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2000, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/41-shots-not-guilty/4544/59 "2000-03-01T22:56:00Z")
Someone give me some info about Diallo, or provide an appropriate link. Where was he from? How long was he in this country? Was it long enough to know what to do when confronted by NYPD? Did he know what a plainclothes cop is? Do they have plainclothes cops where he came from? Dis he come from a country where the cops are less trustworthy than NYPD? (Not that ALL NYPD cops are un-trustworthy.) What I’m trying to point out is that the guy may have died from ignorance. When you don’t know the local customs, you usually fall back on the instincts and habits you developed back home. unfortunately, those habits and instincts may be inappropriate in your new environment. **Mr Zambezi** said the fact they fired 41 times showed they were in fear for their lives. Question: What if that fear was unjustified? (I know, that’s why the jury did not convict. But juries can make mistakes. I’m sure you all have your favorite miscarriage of justice.) * * * If I were a robber, I might shout, “Freeze! NYPD!” knowing that my victim would stop and be less likely to resist, perhaps even relax and be off guard. Now that he’s a stationary target, I just shoot him and pick his pockets. (I’m not saying that’s what Diallo was thinking. But we can’t know now, can we?) * * * \>\ \_ **L\_\_\_L** ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Zambezi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Mr.Zambezi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Zambezi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2000, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/41-shots-not-guilty/4544/60 "2000-03-01T23:32:00Z")
Jab, only the officers can tell you if they were truly afraid. I find it hard to believe that they woudl have risked jail time on a whim. Now, if they were the cops from the Rampart fiasco, I may not feel the same. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/41-shots-not-guilty/4544.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/41-shots-not-guilty/4544.md?page=4)