# 49% vs. 41% in favour of Muslim ban **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 31, 2017, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708 "2017-01-31T22:54:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/201 "2017-02-02T19:22:38Z")
I happen to not believe that the vetting of “visitors and immigrants” was as impeccable during Obama’s administration as you seem to. We let some people into the country that we would have been better off if we had not, in hindsight. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/202 "2017-02-02T19:30:11Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I happen to not believe that the vetting of “visitors and immigrants” was as impeccable during Obama’s administration as you seem to. We let some people into the country that we would have been better off if we had not, in hindsight. In your view, why were those people allowed in? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/203 "2017-02-02T19:40:26Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I happen to not believe that the vetting of “visitors and immigrants” was as impeccable during Obama’s administration as you seem to. We let some people into the country that we would have been better off if we had not, in hindsight. I’m not sure if anyone has said that the vetting was “impeccable”. It seems to me that you are setting up an extreme position that nobody has actually held. Maybe that makes it easier for you to attack this (hyperbolic, non-realistic) position? Vetting of refugees and other immigrant groups has certainly happened in the past. This is indisputable. Perhaps it could be improved. I think the vast majority would agree that this would likely be a good idea. No, there is no imaginary position that wants immigration by refugees or others to occur “willy-nilly”. This is just a pretend position. Now, given that it might be a good idea to strengthen the vetting procedures, the question is, what is the best way to go about this? Would the best way to suddenly institute a ban on current visa holders as they are in the air on the way to the USA, without proper notification for local, state, airport, immigration authorities? And only THEN start to figure out what this “Extreme Vetting” might look like? Hmmmmmmm… that sounds like a poor idea to me. That sounds like it would introduce uncertainty, panic, irritation, etc. and lead one to the conclusion that the ban on current visa holders was not done out of a concern for safety, but rather as a nasty, punative action on the part of a hateful minority. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/204 "2017-02-02T19:46:08Z")
Gallup poll, different numbers: [About Half of Americans Say Trump Moving Too Fast](http://www.gallup.com/poll/203264/half-americans-say-trump-moving-fast.aspx) 55% disapprove of the seven-country travel restrictions, 58% disapprove of the Syrian refugee ban, 60% disapprove of the border wall. As with all polls, I think the trend over time is going to be a lot more meaningful than the raw numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/205 "2017-02-02T19:52:15Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > Oh Johnny, that will not work on him, in fact, as a conservative that is likely one of the worst things you could have said to get him to come around because there is a cosmic aversion to doing anything the rest of the world wants. > > I know this all too well based on how much I listen to conservatives. > > As for the poll, I entirely believe these numbers. There are a lot of people that would put the bricks in the wall themselves to construct fortress America where only the “natives” and anglosphere had any hope of traveling around and visiting without issue. > > I’m concerned about unchecked muslim immigration as well, more than most people on this board, but a blanket ban is way too far and we already vet people fairly well. But the talk radio peanut gallery and conservative America? Just look at the posters, ther commentary suggests they have become little more than pustules of fear and a people under siege mode. It’s always the other that must be guarded against. And the result of that isolationist sentiment will be a determined choice not to do business with the US, to divert contracts and products to other countries that are less trouble to deal with, and to reduce dependence on the US…not to mention retaliatory actions against threatened tariffs and bans. Lost jobs, lost trade, lost money in the pockets of those very people who thought it was such a good idea to close themselves off to the rest of the world. And globalization will march along without even the slightest distraction. Worst case, those companies that Trump tries to hit with tariffs will simply move outside the US to do business. (Not to mention that those tariffs will only be passed on to the consumer anyway.) But it doesn’t end there. Watch inflation climb and consumer confidence plummet. This butterfly has some YUGE wings. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/206 "2017-02-02T19:54:32Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Cite? I didn’t think it was nearly that many. > > To your broader point that the order was implemented in a fashion that caused some confusion / chaos / disruption / inconvenience / hardship for some people, I largely agree. (ETA: I would say the same was true of ObamaCare. Presidents - especially new ones - and government fuck stuff up like this with disheartening regularity.) Stranded at airports was incorrect phrasing, as I mean to include people that went to airports in the origin country, and were denied getting on a plane. I still consider it to be stranded if you have sold your home and are getting ready to move to a new life. I consider it stranded if you are just on vacation visiting your family, and can’t get home. I had heard a number of around 3500 affected people a few days ago, but I am not finding that cite now… best I can come up with is [this](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/01/30/the-number-of-people-affected-by-trumps-travel-ban-about-90000/?utm_term=.936cefa208dc), at the moment, which, I think indicates around a thousand, once you add them up, though the article is confusing enough that I am not sure if there is double counting in there. Now, as far as comparing it to the ACA, that was not implemented by executive order, it was not implemented with no notice to either those effected by it, or those who were to enforce it. While I will agree that the ACA certainly is lacking, and could be improved, it is not in any way a valid comparison to this action. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/207 "2017-02-02T19:55:54Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > My point in mentioning Obamacare wasn’t to sidetrack the thread into the pros and cons of Obamacare, but to offer up an example of another government program that had a rough initial rollout. I thought it was so self-evident that even partisan Democrats could concede that point. And not really applicable, the website needed lots of work, but the program continued. The current Muslim ban not only required a rework, but a component of the order crashed and burned. To be like the current issue the Obamacare website would had been scrapped completely and also an already approved component in place after all legal challenges had passed, like if the states had been told that the Medicare expansion that was voluntary had been scraped for all sates\*\* just by word of mouth.\*\* Indeed, the authors of the ban did told others that the part about current visa holders is not applicable, right after judges had told them that people have rights so that bit should not had been there in the first place. It has to be pointed out here that it is still not clear if that change just by word of mouth is ok. And to top it all there is the bit that the ban is supposed to be only temporary. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/208 "2017-02-02T20:01:41Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I happen to not believe that the vetting of “visitors and immigrants” was as impeccable during Obama’s administration as you seem to. We let some people into the country that we would have been better off if we had not, in hindsight. Who? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/209 "2017-02-02T20:07:40Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > And the result of that isolationist sentiment will be a determined choice not to do business with the US, to divert contracts and products to other countries that are less trouble to deal with, and to reduce dependence on the US…not to mention retaliatory actions against threatened tariffs and bans. . I am currently pressing my elected representatives to do just this with regard to our relations with the US. First, look into trade treaties with other countries/regions to reduce our dependence on US trade. Second, to be absolutely tough if the US starts to put tariffs or bans in place. Don’t fold- be strong. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/210 "2017-02-02T20:08:53Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Who? Dylann Roof. If only we’d stopped his ancestors from immigrating, we would have been more safe. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/211 "2017-02-02T20:13:10Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Who? > **[Milo Yiannopoulos](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milo_Yiannopoulos)** > > The University of Manchester > Milo Yiannopoulos (/jəˈnɒpələs/; né Hanrahan; born 18 October 1984) is a British far-right political commentator. His speeches and writings criticise Islam, feminism, social justice, and political correctness. Yiannopoulos is a former editor of Breitbart News, an American far-right news and opinion website. > Yiannopoulos worked for Breitbart from 2014 to 2017. During this time, he rose to prominence as a significant voice in the Gamergate controversy. In July 2016... (Slightly more seriously, since the answer is something like “them,” that’s one of those cases where “Whom?” works better than “Who?” See also Alan Ginsberg: [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=swwZO3LUm5Q](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=swwZO3LUm5Q). I apologize for the grammar pedantry, but the Ginsberg link wouldn’t have worked without it. Normally I would never ever do that. ;)) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/212 "2017-02-02T20:15:18Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Dylann Roof. If only we’d stopped his ancestors from immigrating, we would have been more safe. The original Homeland Security sadly failed… > **[The Original Homeland Security](http://montages.blogspot.com/2005/01/original-homeland-security.html)** ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/213 "2017-02-02T20:28:34Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I am currently pressing my elected representatives to do just this with regard to our relations with the US. First, look into trade treaties with other countries/regions to reduce our dependence on US trade. Second, to be absolutely tough if the US starts to put tariffs or bans in place. Don’t fold- be strong. Good. Not only is strength the only thing that the orange-haired orangutan has any chance of understanding, it’s the only way to deal with a bully. Then maybe some of those anti-establishment and isolationist types will get the hint that they screwed up in voting for a strongman without even the slightest taint of scruples in some childish grab at any change no matter how deleterious it’s bound to be. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/214 "2017-02-02T21:23:48Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Who? I gave a couple examples previously, although frankly I can’t remember if it was in this thread or another one at this point. Off the top of my head, the Ohio State University attacker, the pair out of Bowling Green, Kentucky, and - since you broadly specified “visitors and immigrants” - the female from the San Bernardino. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/215 "2017-02-02T21:25:37Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > In your view, why were those people allowed in? A variety of reasons: refugee, K-1 visa, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/216 "2017-02-02T23:03:31Z")
> [@snoe](#): > > [Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/) Thanks for the grammar and culture lesson. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I gave a couple examples previously, although frankly I can’t remember if it was in this thread or another one at this point. Off the top of my head, the Ohio State University attacker, the pair out of Bowling Green, Kentucky, and - since you broadly specified “visitors and immigrants” - the female from the San Bernardino. Well the Iraqis were a very poor oversight but it looks like something was done to address it. The other examples were impossible to predict and I doubt anything Trump will think of is going to prevent these kinds of attacks. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/217 "2017-02-02T23:11:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > A variety of reasons: refugee, K-1 visa, etc. Which of those people were refugees? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/218 "2017-02-02T23:52:54Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Which of those people were refugees? All those except the San Bernadino one were refugees. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/219 "2017-02-03T00:01:35Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > The other examples were impossible to predict and I doubt anything Trump will think of is going to prevent these kinds of attacks. That may well end up being true. I certainly don’t have a good specific suggestion for distinguishing which Somalis might decide to run into a crowd of their fellow students and which ones won’t, or which K-1 immigrant might decide to shoot up her husband’s holiday party and which ones won’t. In this case though, Trump has asked them to take the next 90 days to see if they can figure something out. It’ll be interesting to see what they come up with. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/220 "2017-02-03T00:22:13Z")
Something that nobody has thought of yet? So he’s assigning the same people who haven’t thought of it yet (whatever “it” may prove to be…) to think of it in ninety days. Well, now, that there is taking _action_, isn’t it! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708.md?page=12)