# 49% vs. 41% in favour of Muslim ban **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 31, 2017, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708 "2017-01-31T22:54:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/81 "2017-02-01T13:36:47Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It is absolute lunacy to take the position that we should just throw open our doors willy-nilly to any and every Muslim who seeks to enter the country because to do otherwise is racism or religious discrimination. Agreed. Moreover, it’s a completely asinine idea to suggest, which is likely why I’ve never heard anyone say it until now. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/82 "2017-02-01T15:04:26Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Here’s my problem with Trump’s moratorium or ban or whatever: > > 1. If you want to put a moratorium on people from a country or countries entering your country, you stop issuing new visas. You don’t refuse to honor valid visas issued before the executive order. > > 2. The countries chosen were rather arbitrary. Supposedly the issue was stability, but that doesn’t really apply to all the countries on the list. The list should have been based on where the terrorists come from. Dammit, quit bringing logic and reason into a Trump thread! > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Trump made a big deal about Obama not saying “radical Islamic terrorism” but is too much of a pussy to say “yeah, it’s a Muslim ban” ? Perhaps because the order doesn’t affect the 6 countries with the [largest Muslim population](http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/muslims/pf_15-04-02_projectionstables74/), and only 1 of the top 10. Perhaps because the 7 countries targeted account for only [12.2% of the world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country)Muslim population. I agree completely that the order should not have been applied to anyone with a valid visa or green card. I also agree that this is another example of “security theatre”, much like taking off my shoes at airport security (remind me how many shoe bombs have been discovered that way…). Hyperbole, however, tends to obscure the real issues. Calling this a “Muslim ban” is hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/83 "2017-02-01T15:17:21Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > Calling this a “Muslim ban” is hyperbole. Again with the semantics over substance. Great, it’s not a complete Muslim ban. Woo Hoo! Does that actually mean anything of substance other than trying to make Trump supporters feel a little better about discriminating against only some of the Muslims? Does it make those Muslims who are denied entry any less harmed because somewhere else in the world there is a Muslim who is allowed in? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/84 "2017-02-01T15:19:34Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Ahem, it’s not a ban. It could more properly be called a moratorium. > > Nor is it awful. Freely allowing terrorists to enter the country and kill American citizens is awful. Isn’t it awful to prevent grandmothers from seeing their grandchildren or from mothers seeing their sons or scientists from continuing their medical research? Why can’t you just agree that it is an awful thing to do, but then say that is necessary to protect our country (and then make the case that we will actually be safer)? Why is it that you have to refute, ignore, deny, and obfuscate all the negative consequences of this executive order? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/85 "2017-02-01T15:19:40Z")
It’s not security theater; it’s pandering. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/86 "2017-02-01T15:22:43Z")
The European Union, Organization of Islamic Cooperation, the African Union, and all of the world’s far-right parties view this executive order as a Muslim ban, yet we have this percentage of Americans who insist it isn’t one - that’s it is something else. People can rationalize anything. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/87 "2017-02-01T15:23:34Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Ahem, it’s not a ban. It could more properly be called a moratorium. > > Nor is it awful. Freely allowing terrorists to enter the country and kill American citizens is awful. Everyone from those countries are terrorists? how do you know? Is it because they are muslim? How many terrorists from those specific countries have entered the country previously? How do you know? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/88 "2017-02-01T15:54:23Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Because Muslim countries have such wonderful, welcoming, immigration policies. > > > [@](#): > > > > I see: if they’re assholes to people who want to move to \*their \*countries, we should be assholes to people who want to move to _our_ country. > > > > It’s not quite as bad as ‘the men from the other tribe came and raped a bunch of _our_ women, so we’re going to rape a bunch of _their_ women’ but it’s working on it, and it’s in the same vein. > > Next think you’ll tell me is that failure to support gay marriage is hurting our image in the Muslim world too and helping ISIS to recruit. This doesn’t even make sense. This order is inexcusable from any POV\* - it targets countries whose citizens haven’t attacked us, but whose main offense seems to be that they’re 97% Muslim. It’s hard to derive any conclusion besides “Trump is out to get Muslims” from it. And to people on the other side of the world who don’t follow our politics closely, it’ll be “the U.S. is out to get Muslims.” I can only hope the protests over here are getting some publicity over there - that they know a lot of us Americans are very much opposed to this. \*OK, excepting the POV of people like Bannon who’d love to see an all-out war between the West and Islam. Fuck 'em. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/89 "2017-02-01T15:57:33Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Ahem, it’s not a ban. It could more properly be called a moratorium. Funny, Trump called it a ban. Spicer called it a ban. Kellyanne Conway called it a ban. Now they’ve decided that they don’t like ‘ban’ after all, and want everybody to use new words. Glad to see you got the memo. But as the commercial used to go, ‘ban’ won’t wear off, as the day wears on. They’re stuck with their own words, despite all their efforts to weasel away from them. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/90 "2017-02-01T16:19:56Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Nobody is being banned, they’re merely being held back a few months for very sensible reasons. I have full faith that Trump will keep his promise drop the “moratorium” on the schedule he suggested, just the way I had full faith that he would keep his promise to show us his tax returns once he was elected. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Actually Trump knew exactly what he was doing. As he said (and as was obvious to those of us who can think straight), to have announced said moratorium a week ahead of time could well have given rise to determined efforts to insert Islamic terrorists into our midst beforehand. Sorry, this is B.S. Please describe to me the scenario in which an evil terrorist who has already obtained a tourist visa, or for that matter a green card would have been able to quickly ramp up his plans to enter in the one week while Trump let people and businesses prepare for the “moratorium” on travel, but wouldn’t have already decided to enter the US prior to January 20th before the magic words “Islamic Terrorism” were uttered by our glorious leader, thus making us impervious to all attack. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/91 "2017-02-01T16:44:12Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > And there it is. It was stupid. The man is stupid. His staff is stupid. At least in the context of governance and international affairs. > > They have done permanent damage to international relations. People who had valid visas, who had been given permission to enter our country, who had gotten on planes and flown here, were told “you’re not welcome, go home”. Some were treated like criminals. Some were handcuffed. Children were kept from parents. Why should anyone trust us from now on? > > They’ve given a gift to radical Islamists, who can now point and say “see how America treats Muslims”. They’ve probably done more damage to our national security than letting in some valid visa holders or refugees would ever do. I’m pretty sure the Administration will be only too happy if the world’s muslims take alarm and far fewer intend to visit or immigrate as a consequence. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/92 "2017-02-01T16:50:55Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Sorry, this is B.S. Please describe to me the scenario in which an evil terrorist who has already obtained a tourist visa, or for that matter a green card would have been able to quickly ramp up his plans to enter in the one week while Trump let people and businesses prepare for the “moratorium” on travel, but wouldn’t have already decided to enter the US prior to January 20th before the magic words “Islamic Terrorism” were uttered by our glorious leader, thus making us impervious to all attack. Yeah, with apologies to Mencken, that excuse is clear, simple, and bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/93 "2017-02-01T16:54:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > 1. The countries chosen were rather arbitrary. Supposedly the issue was stability, but that doesn’t really apply to all the countries on the list. The list should have been based on where the terrorists come from. The list wasn’t arbitrary at all. [The DHS, under Obama, identified these seven countries as being “of concern”](https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/02/18/dhs-announces-further-travel-restrictions-visa-waiver-program). We can argue about whether banning almost everyone from them is reasonable or not, but it’s not like Trump just threw darts at a map to come up with the list. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/94 "2017-02-01T17:04:47Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The list wasn’t arbitrary at all. [The DHS, under Obama, identified these seven countries as being “of concern”](https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/02/18/dhs-announces-further-travel-restrictions-visa-waiver-program). We can argue about whether banning almost everyone from them is reasonable or not, but it’s not like Trump just threw darts at a map to come up with the list. It was Trumps executive order. He was not bound or forced to use any list. This was entirely his choice. This Obama thing is a transparant and pathetic attempt for cover. What compelled Trump to choose this list aside from him choosing to do so and because he could then use the Obama fig leaf to try to avoid responsibility? What forced his hand? This whole list defense is pathetic. You are essentially arguing that the President had no choice in how to write his own executive order. Sad. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/95 "2017-02-01T17:06:52Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > You are essentially arguing that the President had no choice in how to write his own executive order. That’s not what I’m arguing at all. You should, perhaps, try to re-read my post. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/96 "2017-02-01T17:08:07Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That’s not what I’m arguing at all. You should, perhaps, try to re-read my post. Insults. Got it, that’s about what I expect from Trump people at this point. Why actually address an argument when you can just insult. Cool. Have a good one. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/97 "2017-02-01T17:10:53Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The list wasn’t arbitrary at all. [The DHS, under Obama, identified these seven countries as being “of concern”](https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/02/18/dhs-announces-further-travel-restrictions-visa-waiver-program). We can argue about whether banning almost everyone from them is reasonable or not, but it’s not like Trump just threw darts at a map to come up with the list. Thanks for the link. It also provides an example of how to reasonably target potentially dangerous individuals: Traveled since date X, traveled to these countries, able to travel to the US as part of the Visa Waiver Program. In other words, people who traveled under suspicious circumstances and have not been vetted to get a visa. Caution without undue discrimination. Trump’s approach: Muslim ban (that he can get away with for now). ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/98 "2017-02-01T17:12:02Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Insults. Got it, that’s about what I expect from Trump people at this point. Why actually address an argument when you can just insult. > > Cool. Have a good one. You were arguing against a straw man that existed only in your own mind. You want me to defend an argument I never made. I’m not going to waste my time like that. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/99 "2017-02-01T17:14:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The list wasn’t arbitrary at all. [The DHS, under Obama, identified these seven countries as being “of concern”](https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/02/18/dhs-announces-further-travel-restrictions-visa-waiver-program). We can argue about whether banning almost everyone from them is reasonable or not, but it’s not like Trump just threw darts at a map to come up with the list. He certainly didn’t throw darts, that might have ended up with one of the darts hitting a country he does business with. Couldn’t have that. But let’s not pretend he was bound by anything else when deciding which countries he could pick. It’s his order, he picked them. And he picked those countries, not because they’re the biggest risk or because Obama had used a similar list for something else, but because he wanted to. He wanted to pretend he had cover and mislead people into thinking it was Obama’s decision and he was just doing what Obama did. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/100 "2017-02-01T17:17:49Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That’s not what I’m arguing at all. You should, perhaps, try to re-read my post. You just parroted the WH – that’s not an actual justification for why those countries were chosen. Even assuming the WH is being honest, why did they go by that list, rather than many other lists of countries of concern, or dangerous countries, or whatever, that had been made over the past several years? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708.md?page=6)