# 49% vs. 41% in favour of Muslim ban **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 31, 2017, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708 "2017-01-31T22:54:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/101 "2017-02-01T17:19:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Starving Artist > It is absolute lunacy to take the position that we should just throw open our doors willy-nilly to any and every Muslim who seeks to enter the country because to do otherwise is racism or religious discrimination. > [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Agreed. Moreover, it’s a completely asinine idea to suggest, which is likely why I’ve never heard anyone say it until now. It is puzzling how anyone could have this idea that there are only two options; to “throw open the doors willy nillly to any and every Muslim”, or to enact a ban on entire countries because they contain scary Muslims (while not having a ban on countries that sent actual terrorists to kill thousands). Talk about your excluded middle. And it seems that some people actually believe that the first option was either happening, or was promoted by ANYBODY. Do they really believe either of these scenarios? Or is it just hyperbole on their part? It’s confusing how anyone could be so very, very very badly misinformed about how much people are \*\*already vetted \*\*- both visa applicants and refugees. Where do they get this misinformation from and why do they uncritically believe it? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/102 "2017-02-01T17:20:16Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You were arguing against a straw man that existed only in your own mind. You want me to defend an argument I never made. I’m not going to waste my time like that. You are defending Trump by saying that Trump didn’t choose this list, Obama did. So the implication is that Obama somehow made Trump use this list, and Donny has no responsibility for targeting these countries. The whole blame Obama thing your side loves to do so much. You didn’t say those exact words of course, but then why focus on where Trump got the list when it’s his Executive Order. Why even bring up Obama except to deflect Trump from blame. What is the relevance except to try to shift blame from Trump to Obama. If that wasn’t your purpose in posting that, then what was your purpose? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/103 "2017-02-01T17:21:48Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Thanks for the link. It also provides an example of how to reasonably target potentially dangerous individuals: Traveled since date X, traveled to these countries, able to travel to the US as part of the Visa Waiver Program. > > In other words, people who traveled under suspicious circumstances and have not been vetted to get a visa. Caution without undue discrimination. > > Trump’s approach: Muslim ban (that he can get away with for now). Others have already addressed the myriad ways this isn’t accurately described as a “Muslim ban”, so I won’t go into that further, but since you seem willing to read information presented, let me share one more story with you from September 2016: [http://bigstory.ap.org/article/5aa83cad5521484296a629863b068964/more-800-immigrants-mistakenly-granted-citizenship](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/5aa83cad5521484296a629863b068964/more-800-immigrants-mistakenly-granted-citizenship) I don’t know if problems like this were on Trump’s mind when he issued the order, but it wouldn’t surprise me. In the interest of furthering the discussion, I readily concede that there’s a fair bit of room for criticism in both the confusing way it was rolled out and perhaps that it’s a bit like using a sledgehammer to try to kill a fly. What’s not fair, or accurate, is to pretend that these seven countries don’t have major infestations of terrorists. Obama bombed actual terrorists in five of them. Another one (Iran) is the [Obama-era State Department’s top state sponsor of terrorism](http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/02/politics/state-department-report-terrorism/). ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/104 "2017-02-01T17:27:13Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > You are defending Trump by saying that Trump didn’t choose this list, Obama did. So the implication is that Obama somehow made Trump use this list, and Donny has no responsibility for targeting these countries. The whole blame Obama thing your side loves to do so much. > > You didn’t say those exact words of course, but then why focus on where Trump got the list when it’s his Executive Order. Why even bring up Obama except to deflect Trump from blame. What is the relevance except to try to shift blame from Trump to Obama. If that wasn’t your purpose in posting that, then what was your purpose? NO! That’s not the fucking implication! The reason I focused on where Trump got the list is because adaher said it was “rather arbitrary”. It wasn’t, so I explained the origins of the list. Frankly, I don’t know where I’d get a better list of “countries of concern” than this one. If I asked you to list places that have significant terrorist safe havens today, your list would probably look an awful lot like the list Trump used. What Trump chose to do with the list (90-day pause on immigration from these countries) was totally his own choice, I agree, which seems to be the point you’re hung up on. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/105 "2017-02-01T17:29:17Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > If I asked you to list places that have significant terrorist safe havens today, your list would probably look an awful lot like the list Trump used. That’s the thing though, if we made a list of significant terrorist safe havens it would include some countries that are conspicuously absent from this list, like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan. And it’s not like they’d be numbers 8-10 on a list of the top 10, with the 7 named countries filling spots 1-7. They’d be higher up. Since those countries aren’t on the list, can you maybe see why it feels a bit arbitrary? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/106 "2017-02-01T17:30:21Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > As he said (and as was obvious to those of us who can think straight), to have announced said moratorium a week ahead of time could well have given rise to determined efforts to insert Islamic terrorists into our midst beforehand This is not thinking straight. If the bad guys did not already have a visa and were from the countries affected, then it is not even possible to start and finish the process to obtain a visa in that week, “determined efforts” or no. If the bad guys already had a visa and were from the countries affected, then they could travel here anytime anyway, and probably would have come just as soon as their visa was approved, weeks or months or years ago. If the bad guys were not from the countries affected, then they can still come here; the presence or absence of the “moratorium” does absolutely nothing to prevent them. This “moratorium” doesn’t affect the bad guys, and I don’t think it ever was intended to affect the bad guys, because they, by definition, are “bad”–they’re not playing by the rules. The only people affected, and the only people ever intended to be affected, are the ones who did try to play by the rules, who did try to be law-abiding, but who had the misfortune of being from a country that Trump & Co. want to demonize. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/107 "2017-02-01T17:30:43Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What’s not fair, or accurate, is to pretend that these seven countries don’t have major infestations of terrorists. Obama bombed actual terrorists in five of them. Another one (Iran) is the [Obama-era State Department’s top state sponsor of terrorism](http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/02/politics/state-department-report-terrorism/). No one is pretending that those countries don’t have some kind of ties to terrorism, but given that there are far worse countries, countries from which terrorists have killed Americans on American soil, I have a really hard time swallowing the idea that these 7 were the worst of the worst that necessitated a ban from them (and only them). Trumps list was for political cover, not to actually try and stop terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/108 "2017-02-01T17:33:25Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > That’s the thing though, if we made a list of significant terrorist safe havens it would include some countries that are conspicuously absent from this list, like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan. And it’s not like they’d be numbers 8-10 on a list of the top 10, with the 7 named countries filling spots 1-7. They’d be higher up. Since those countries aren’t on the list, can you maybe see why it feels a bit arbitrary? Yeah, I can see how it feels a bit arbitrary to people, but then again, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan didn’t make the DHS list of “countries of concern” under Obama either. Unfortunately, we’re not privy to their exact selection criteria. Frankly, I was a bit surprised Afghanistan wasn’t on the list either. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/109 "2017-02-01T17:33:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > NO! That’s not the fucking implication! The reason I focused on where Trump got the list is because adaher said it was “rather arbitrary”. It wasn’t, so I explained the origins of the list. > > Frankly, I don’t know where I’d get a better list of “countries of concern” than this one. If I asked you to list places that have significant terrorist safe havens today, your list would probably look an awful lot like the list Trump used. > > What Trump chose to do with the list (90-day pause on immigration from these countries) was totally his own choice, I agree, which seems to be the point you’re hung up on. You parroted the talking point from the WH blaming Obama for the list. So maybe you didn’t mean to imply that yourself, but you certainly copied them and that was definitely their intention by making that choice. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/110 "2017-02-01T17:36:13Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > You parroted the talking point from the WH blaming Obama for the list. So maybe you didn’t mean to imply that yourself, but you certainly copied them and that was definitely their intention by making that choice. This. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/111 "2017-02-01T17:36:46Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yeah, I can see how it feels a bit arbitrary to people, but then again, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan didn’t make the DHS list of “countries of concern” under Obama either. Unfortunately, we’re not privy to their exact selection criteria. Frankly, I was a bit surprised Afghanistan wasn’t on the list either. Once again blame Obama. Party of personal responsibility my ass. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/112 "2017-02-01T17:36:48Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > You parroted the talking point from the WH blaming Obama for the list. So maybe you didn’t mean to imply that yourself, but you certainly copied them and that was definitely their intention by making that choice. I haven’t read the WH talking points, so it was certainly not my intention. I’m not trying to “blame” Obama for the list either, just trying to accurately share its origins. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/113 "2017-02-01T17:36:49Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The list wasn’t arbitrary at all. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yeah, I can see how it feels a bit arbitrary to people. You’re a treat. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/114 "2017-02-01T17:37:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I haven’t read the WH talking points, so it was certainly not my intention. I’m not trying to “blame” Obama for the list either, just trying to accurately share its origins. So just a coincidence then? That it? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/115 "2017-02-01T17:39:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I haven’t read the WH talking points, so it was certainly not my intention. I’m not trying to “blame” Obama for the list either, just trying to accurately share its origins. You’re accurately sharing the WH’s explanation of its origins. That they found, among hundreds or thousands of EOs and bills signed by Obama, with numerous different lists of dangerous countries, a list that matches, doesn’t necessarily mean that the one was the origin of the other. Unless, of course, one is inclined to believe the WH’s explanations without a critical eye. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/116 "2017-02-01T17:41:30Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > You’re a treat. The list is not “arbitary” (in the “based on random choice or personal whim” definition). DHS put a real effort into determining which countries should be of concern to our national security (in terms of people traveling from those locations). This is the list they came up with. That being said, I can understand how a lot of people have “feelings” that maybe the list is incomplete, or inaccurate. They remember things like: “didn’t a bunch of the 9/11 guys come from Saudi Arabia? Why aren’t they on the list?” When I said “I can see how it feels a bit arbitrary to people” I was referring to those sort of views. But I think they’re just “feelings” based more on ignorance than fact. The DHS undertook a thorough review and made a list. People with just gut-level “feelings” like I was talking about, have not. I apologize if that was unclear to you. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/117 "2017-02-01T17:43:22Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > just trying to accurately share its origins. Even NPR was covering, as of Saturday morning when I first learned of the ban, the supposed origins of the list, so it’s not like you’re informing us of something special that the “liberal media” has been trying to keep a secret. We _know_ where the white house is claiming they got their list from. We just don’t buy the BS. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/118 "2017-02-01T17:47:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’re accurately sharing the WH’s explanation of its origins. That they found, among hundreds or thousands of EOs and bills signed by Obama, with numerous different lists of dangerous countries, a list that matches, doesn’t necessarily mean that the one was the origin of the other. > > Unless, of course, one is inclined to believe the WH’s explanations without a critical eye. It doesn’t really take an “uncritical” eye. Trump’s EO refers to “countries referred to in section 217(a)(12) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1187(a)(12)”. If you don’t consider that enough of an “origin” explanation, I don’t know what to tell you. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/119 "2017-02-01T17:48:37Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The list is not “arbitary” (in the “based on random choice or personal whim” definition). DHS put a real effort into determining which countries should be of concern to our national security (in terms of people traveling from those locations). This is the list they came up with. > > That being said, I can understand how a lot of people have “feelings” that maybe the list is incomplete, or inaccurate. They remember things like: “didn’t a bunch of the 9/11 guys come from Saudi Arabia? Why aren’t they on the list?” When I said “I can see how it feels a bit arbitrary to people” I was referring to those sort of views. But I think they’re just “feelings” based more on ignorance than fact. The DHS undertook a thorough review and made a list. People with just gut-level “feelings” like I was talking about, have not. I apologize if that was unclear to you. Why do the Republicans all of a sudden trust the Obama administrations work on anything though? Sudden change of heart? No, political cover is the answer, and you’re swallowing it whole. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/120 "2017-02-01T17:49:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > … numerous different lists of dangerous countries … Cite? I don’t know that Obama put together very many additional “lists of dangerous countries” besides the one DHS created in 2015-2016. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708.md?page=7)