# 49% vs. 41% in favour of Muslim ban **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 31, 2017, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708 "2017-01-31T22:54:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/141 "2017-02-01T18:42:40Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Did you read the AP story I cited in post #103? I have now. Sounds like a problem that should be addressed… but I don’t see what it has to do with our discussion about advice from intelligence agencies. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/142 "2017-02-01T18:43:48Z")
Do people just not know what tu quoque is anymore? If your argument is “the other side does it, too,” you have no argument. Your argument has to rest on its own merits. It’s perfectly possible the other side is bad, too. That’s completely immaterial. And getting caught up and allowing the discussion to change to defending the other side, isn’t good, either. If you want to defend a Muslim ban, which is what this thread is about, you have to do so without any reference to what others have done. Obama could literally be Hitler himself, and it would not matter in the _slightest_. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/143 "2017-02-01T18:45:53Z")
Before I get heated, I’ll take a step back. **HurricaneDitka** , I was attacking your specific point that liberals should somehow be pleased, because somehow this represents Trump listening to intelligence agencies. That struck me as an incredibly weak defense, and a poor attempt at a “gotcha” at liberals. Unless I’m missing a big piece of data (like, perhaps, Trump presenting a redacted CIA memo in which they recommend a policy very similar to the new policy for these 7 countries), then to me it’s ridiculous to try to link this policy to advice or recommendations from intelligence agencies. Considering what Trump said on the campaign trail, and what Giuliani specifically said just a few days ago about Trump asking him to convene a panel about how to legally do a Muslim ban, it’s not credible to me that this policy is based on recommendations from the intel agencies, rather than meeting his campaign promises and doing what Giuliani’s panel suggested. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/144 "2017-02-01T18:46:32Z")
let me rephrase … ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/145 "2017-02-01T19:04:56Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > My personal suggestion would be to stop being so damn dramatic. Taking **Kimstu** ’s response a step further, I’d urge you to give that advice to one Donald J. Trump, who throughout his campaign and nascent Presidency has been the Queen of All Drama Queens. Has there been any political figure who so constantly stirred things up? Not in this country during my lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/146 "2017-02-01T19:20:14Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I largely agree with you. Frankly, I think Trump does too, which is why this is just a 90-day (or 120-day) moratorium while they work out how to more carefully screen immigrants from those places for terroristic tendencies. If the point of the order is to screen out poor uneducated brown non-Christians (which I think it really is), then I don’t expect that the moratorium to be lifted anytime soon. Read the text of the order. For example, section 5(c) suspends immigration of Syrian refugees **indefinitely** ; that moratorium gets lifted only when Mr. Trump decides that admission of Syrian refugees “is consistent with the national interest.” Given his rhetoric and that of other members of the administration (notably Mr. Bannon), do you honestly expect he will ever make that decision? In fact, from my reading of the text, NONE of the clauses will automatically expire in 90 or 120 days–they’re all dependent on somebody in the administration deciding that whatever is implemented is “good enough.” ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/147 "2017-02-01T19:30:04Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I hope we’re all aware at this point, that the DHS list was actually for an adjustment to the Visa Waiver Program, for people traveling to these seven countries in recent years. The fear there is basically that they might have gone there to be a terrorist or learn how to be one. They weren’t, at the time, recommending a total ban on people from those countries of concern. > > Is that clear? If the point of the list was that it was suspicious that people travelled to these countries then it’s not reasonable to repurpose the list to be suspicious of people who come from those countries. If I was searching for computer programmers, I would look at people visiting or moving to Silicon Valley, not people born there. If I was looking for homosexuals I would look at people who visited Fire Island not people born there. You see the importance of this distinction? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/148 "2017-02-01T19:42:54Z")
I suspect that the length of the moratorium will be precisely the time it takes for Assad and Putin to wipe out the opposition and put anyone who opposed him along with their families to death, giving Trump and effective final solution to the refugee crisis. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/149 "2017-02-01T19:45:24Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > final solution to the refugee crisis. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/150 "2017-02-01T19:46:01Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > 1. The countries chosen were rather arbitrary. To be fair, if the choices had been arbitrary some clueless staffer probably would have accidentally included a country where The Donald has business interests. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/151 "2017-02-01T19:47:26Z")
And to make clear regarding my last post: that’s not an issue of “too wide a net”, it’s about a poorly aimed net. The intelligence community has a bunch of terror related lists. Perhaps a better list would have been the “where do most foreign terorists come from” list. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/152 "2017-02-01T19:50:46Z")
While I, like many others here, have a very negative view of George W. Bush, here is a speech he gave after 9/11 at Islamic Center of Washington, D.C. [since it is not copyright I am quoting it in full]. Obviously Trump would have reacted very differently: > [@](#): > > THE PRESIDENT: Thank you all very much for your hospitality. We’ve just had a – wide-ranging discussions on the matter at hand. Like the good folks standing with me, the American people were appalled and outraged at last Tuesday’s attacks. And so were Muslims all across the world. Both Americans and Muslim friends and citizens, tax-paying citizens, and Muslims in nations were just appalled and could not believe what we saw on our TV screens. > > ``` > These acts of violence against innocents violate the fundamental tenets of the Islamic faith. And it's important for my fellow Americans to understand that. > > The English translation is not as eloquent as the original Arabic, but let me quote from the Koran, itself: In the long run, evil in the extreme will be the end of those who do evil. For that they rejected the signs of Allah and held them up to ridicule. > > The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. These terrorists don't represent peace. They represent evil and war. > > When we think of Islam we think of a faith that brings comfort to a billion people around the world. Billions of people find comfort and solace and peace. And that's made brothers and sisters out of every race -- out of every race. > > America counts millions of Muslims amongst our citizens, and Muslims make an incredibly valuable contribution to our country. Muslims are doctors, lawyers, law professors, members of the military, entrepreneurs, shopkeepers, moms and dads. And they need to be treated with respect. In our anger and emotion, our fellow Americans must treat each other with respect. > > Women who cover their heads in this country must feel comfortable going outside their homes. Moms who wear cover must be not intimidated in America. That's not the America I know. That's not the America I value. > > I've been told that some fear to leave; some don't want to go shopping for their families; some don't want to go about their ordinary daily routines because, by wearing cover, they're afraid they'll be intimidated. That should not and that will not stand in America. > > Those who feel like they can intimidate our fellow citizens to take out their anger don't represent the best of America, they represent the worst of humankind, and they should be ashamed of that kind of behavior. > > This is a great country. It's a great country because we share the same values of respect and dignity and human worth. And it is my honor to be meeting with leaders who feel just the same way I do. They're outraged, they're sad. They love America just as much as I do. > > I want to thank you all for giving me a chance to come by. And may God bless us all. > > ``` > **["Islam is Peace" Says President](https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010917-11.html)** > > "These acts of violence against innocents violate the fundamental tenets of the Islamic faith. And it's important for my fellow Americans to understand that." ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/153 "2017-02-01T19:51:18Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > let me rephrase … Sorry **iiandyiiii** , I wrote a lengthy post to you, but the Internet gods were against it, and it got lost in the ether. I don’t have time to re-type it now. Best of luck to you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/154 "2017-02-01T19:54:50Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Sorry **iiandyiiii** , I wrote a lengthy post to you, but the Internet gods were against it, and it got lost in the ether. I don’t have time to re-type it now. Best of luck to you. Sorry to hear that. Use a separate word processor program, at least for long posts! ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/155 "2017-02-01T19:55:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’re accurately sharing the WH’s explanation of its origins. That they found, among hundreds or thousands of EOs and bills signed by Obama, with numerous different lists of dangerous countries, a list that matches, doesn’t necessarily mean that the one was the origin of the other. This. It’s hardly surprising that a search through the plethora of documents generated by any administration would produce a “Bible Code” match for any desired political-cover objective. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/156 "2017-02-01T19:56:59Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > If the point of the list was that it was suspicious that people travelled to these countries then it’s not reasonable to repurpose the list to be suspicious of people who come from those countries. If I was searching for computer programmers, I would look at people visiting or moving to Silicon Valley, not people born there. If I was looking for homosexuals I would look at people who visited Fire Island not people born there. You see the importance of this distinction? Yes, I understand the distinction. People who make explicit efforts to travel to these places deserve a closer look, but it’s also not exactly unprecedented to give people from “countries of concern” a closer look as well. The point of Trump’s EO is to pause things until they get a good system in place for doing that. To extend your search for computer programmer analogy, it’s kind of like saying, “we’re not taking any more applicants until we get a really good list of job requirements from the IT department”. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/157 "2017-02-01T20:01:35Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes, I understand the distinction. People who make explicit efforts to travel to these places deserve a closer look, but it’s also not exactly unprecedented to give people from “countries of concern” a closer look as well. The point of Trump’s EO is to pause things until they get a good system in place for doing that. To extend your search for computer programmer analogy, it’s kind of like saying, “we’re not taking any more applicants until we get a really good list of job requirements from the IT department”. No, it’s kind of like saying all the computer programmers we’ve met are from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia but let’s take a closer look at the people born in Silicon Valley. They might be computer programmers too. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/158 "2017-02-01T20:09:52Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > No, it’s kind of like saying all the computer programmers we’ve met are from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia but let’s take a closer look at the people born in Silicon Valley. They might be computer programmers too. Is this an analogy trying to say that no terrorists come from these seven countries? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/159 "2017-02-01T20:12:24Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Ahem, it’s not a ban. It could more properly be called a moratorium. > > Nor is it awful. Freely allowing terrorists to enter the country and kill American citizens is awful. Yeah, but keeping that nice Dr. Ali from coming home if he visits his mother in Tripoli is a different thing. We already stopped terrorists. This is economic persecution of people seen (by Steve Bannon) as unacceptably “foreign.” Hence the Nazi comparisons. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/160 "2017-02-01T20:13:26Z")
Hey, right wingers! Glad you could show up? Got your talking points now? 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708.md?page=9)