# 49% vs. 41% in favour of Muslim ban **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 31, 2017, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708 "2017-01-31T22:54:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/161 "2017-02-01T20:16:14Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Is this an analogy trying to say that no terrorists come from these seven countries? No, unless you think no computer programmers are ever actually born in Silicon Valley. I’m saying it’s not the best indicator. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/162 "2017-02-01T20:22:41Z")
Let me reiterate. “Muslim” is not equal to “ISIS.” Daesh (ISIS) are a very small subset of Muslims who attack other Muslims. Muslims hate Daesh. “Syrian” is not equal to, nor a subset of, nor a superset to “ISIS” “Yemeni” is not equal to, nor a subset of, nor a superset to “al Qaeda” “Muslim” is not equal to, nor a subset of, nor a superset to “terrorist” “Libyan” is not equal to, nor a subset of, nor a superset to “terrorist” “Syrian” is not equal to, nor a subset of, nor a superset to “militant” “terrorist” is not equal to, nor a subset of, nor a superset to “Muslim” And here’s a big one: The set “hates America and wants to kill Americans” is not equal to, nor a subset of, nor a superset to “brown and exotic” But Dr. Ali is culturally a Muslim. And Hussein down at the Lebanese restaurant might be. Not terrorists. Just Muslims. Also, _we know our history._ Muslims are the easy target to start with, but Bannon’s nationalism and ideas about culture are directed more at Silicon Valley billionaires who aren’t Muslim but are Asian. American Hindus and Chinese-Americans know that conceding to this is not just wrong but also deadly to them. And American Jews? Yeah, Trump just lost a hell of a lot of American Jews. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/163 "2017-02-01T20:28:23Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Also, _we know our history._ Muslims are the easy target to start with, but Bannon’s nationalism and ideas about culture are directed more at Silicon Valley billionaires who aren’t Muslim but are Asian. American Hindus and Chinese-Americans know that conceding to this is not just wrong but also deadly to them. And American Jews? Yeah, Trump just lost a hell of a lot of American Jews. You may have seen them already, but there were some interesting links in this Kevin Drum post about how this whole misheggas might’ve been in service of Bannon’s long-term goals: [Trump’s Immigration Order Is Just the Opening Salvo in Steve Bannon’s War Against Islam – Mother Jones](http://m.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/01/trumps-immigration-order-just-opening-salvo-steve-bannons-war-against-islam) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/164 "2017-02-01T20:28:44Z")
Just to jump away from analogies: if you are going to ban entry by country of origin, the least you could do is target countries that are hotbeds of recruitment, not training. The U.S. intelligence community most certainly has a list like that. But using that list would piss off a bunch of regional allies so let’s do this dumb thing instead! ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/165 "2017-02-01T20:35:54Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > That’s the thing though, if we made a list of significant terrorist safe havens it would include some countries that are conspicuously absent from this list, like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan. And it’s not like they’d be numbers 8-10 on a list of the top 10, with the 7 named countries filling spots 1-7. They’d be higher up. Since those countries aren’t on the list, can you maybe see why it feels a bit arbitrary? That’s not “arbitrary” though. “Arbitrary” means a choice based on nothing in particular at all. The decision to leave out Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Pakistan was not some random accident. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/166 "2017-02-01T20:35:56Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Just to jump away from analogies: if you are going to ban travel by country of origin, the least you could do is target countries that are hotbeds of recruitment, not training. The U.S. intelligence community most certainly has a list like that. Excellent point. Of course, with the jihadis that are willing to execute acts of terrorism, their numbers are small enough that even any statistical evidence we gather on this issue is probably not helpful in preventing future attacks. Say the next mass shooter who pledges allegiance to ISIS is a blue-eyed blonde from Wichita (okay, implausible, but not impossible) - how will we react then? ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/167 "2017-02-01T21:21:10Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It is absolute lunacy to take the position that we should just throw open our doors willy-nilly to any and every Muslim who seeks to enter the country because to do otherwise is racism or religious discrimination. It’s not lunacy, it’s bravery. This policy is simply cowardice. Trump is pandering to fear, nothing more, nothing less. Personally I think the French should take back the Statue of Liberty. You guys don’t deserve it anymore. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/168 "2017-02-01T21:29:46Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > It’s not lunacy, it’s bravery. This policy is simply cowardice. Trump is pandering to fear, nothing more, nothing less. > > Personally I think the French should take back the Statue of Liberty. You guys don’t deserve it anymore. You want to give the Statute of Liberty to the country that made “burqa ban” a thing? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/169 "2017-02-01T21:36:04Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It’s not a ban. So those detained can come in later? Good luck with that. > [@](#): > > Actually Trump knew exactly what he was doing. As he said (and as was obvious to those of us who can think straight), to have announced said moratorium a week ahead of time could well have given rise to determined efforts to insert Islamic terrorists into our midst beforehand. It was a very difficult thing for those involved to have to contend with and I sympathize very much with their plight, but to claim the shutdown was impulsive and the result of Trump not knowing what he was doing is simply not correct. You may disagree with what he did and how he did it, but here where we’re supposed to be fighting ignorance it does no one any good to be jumping to erroneous conclusions as to why and how it happened. > … Because **Starving Artist** and his ilk have the monopoly on clear thought. You can cut the condescension with a knife. This rationale is specious on its face. The shutdown _was_ impulsive; witness the government’s scrambling to come to terms with the language of the order itself in the aftermath of its signing. The contention seems to be that it’s as if DHS, TSA, the FBI and NSA don’t exist, as if a bunch of terrorists could simply decide to rush in during the week of preparation and make it through the defenses which already exist. Paranoid, delusional, and ignorant (now that it’s brought up). I also enjoy the compassion displayed for those negatively affected while at the exact same time supporting crushing them. Hypocrisy? You be the judge. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/170 "2017-02-01T22:00:22Z")
“But it’s only a temporary suspension of Constitutional rights!” “It’s only affected 100 or so people so far!” “It will protect you from the hordes of terrorists who have historically entered the country and killed Americans!” Tell it to the ACLU. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/171 "2017-02-01T22:15:52Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > […] to have announced said moratorium a week ahead of time could well have given rise to determined efforts to insert Islamic terrorists into our midst beforehand. In what way do you imagine that Muslim immigrants/refugees outside our borders without US visas can be “inserted into our midst” inside of a week? Please be specific about why you think this would have been a serious threat. This is just a ridiculously feeble excuse for the Administration’s oblivious stupidity in enacting a ban to take effect **immediately** , invalidating the official travel permissions of persons already in transit. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > to claim the shutdown was impulsive and the result of Trump not knowing what he was doing is simply not correct. So far, all the evidence indicates that it absolutely **is** correct. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > Thank you so much. You’re welcome. While you’re at it, you might try to convince your extremist “alt-right” faction of the right wing to stop threatening blacks and Jews, too. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/172 "2017-02-01T22:48:28Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > It’s not lunacy, it’s bravery. Yeah, bravery with other people’s lives. Which the left is chronically prone to be. Witness the number of people raped, robbed, maimed and killed by the hundreds of thousands if not millions of violent convicts prematurely released from prison (over and over again in many cases) due to liberal activism over the lasts 50 years, and by their passion that law abiding citizens should be relieved of their guns, which of course makes them easier targets for criminals who do have guns. In short, anytime there’s a violent group from whom the public needs to be protected, you can count on the left to ride off in defense of said group, seeking to be ‘brave’ with other people’s lives, safe in the knowledge that the odds are against them, as individuals, ever falling prey to said violence themselves. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/173 "2017-02-01T22:56:16Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Yeah, bravery with other people’s lives. Which the left is chronically prone to be. Witness the number of people raped, robbed, maimed and killed by the hundreds of thousands if not millions of violent convicts prematurely released from prison (over and over again in many cases) due to liberal activism over the lasts 50 years, and by their passion that law abiding citizens should be relieved of their guns, which of course makes them easier targets for criminals who do have guns. > > In short, anytime there’s a violent group from whom the public needs to be protected, you can count on the left to ride off in defense of said group, seeking to be ‘brave’ with other people’s lives, safe in the knowledge that the odds are against them, as individuals, ever falling prey to said violence themselves. It couldn’t be that some people on the left are compassionate, decent, honest, intelligent, and just happen to have different experiences than you which lead them to different conclusions… they have to have malicious or otherwise negative motives, right? Liberals can’t be decent, smart, and honest. Only conservatives can. At least, that’s what I get by your posts. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/174 "2017-02-01T23:07:32Z")
> [@snoe](#): > > Excellent point. Of course, with the jihadis that are willing to execute acts of terrorism, their numbers are small enough that even any statistical evidence we gather on this issue is probably not helpful in preventing future attacks. Say the next mass shooter who pledges allegiance to ISIS is a blue-eyed blonde from Wichita (okay, implausible, but not impossible) - how will we react then? Obviously the discussion will be about the failures of American mental health professionals. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/175 "2017-02-01T23:39:35Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Yeah, bravery with other people’s lives. Which the left is chronically prone to be. Witness the number of people raped, robbed, maimed and killed by the hundreds of thousands if not millions of violent convicts prematurely released from prison (over and over again in many cases) due to liberal activism over the lasts 50 years, and by their passion that law abiding citizens should be relieved of their guns, which of course makes them easier targets for criminals who do have guns. Most if not all of the people prematurely released from prison were released because keeping them inside requires building more prisons and paying more prison guards, both of which require taxes. Which side has been vocal in insisting that taxes should be cut rather than raised? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/176 "2017-02-01T23:46:59Z")
> [@snoe](#): > > Excellent point. Of course, with the jihadis that are willing to execute acts of terrorism, their numbers are small enough that even any statistical evidence we gather on this issue is probably not helpful in preventing future attacks. Say the next mass shooter who pledges allegiance to ISIS is a blue-eyed blonde from Wichita (okay, implausible, but not impossible) - how will we react then? Just north of the Border, a white non-Muslim just committed a terrorist act. You may have seen something about it on the news. We know how many reacted to the news: [ul][li]Blamed Muslims for being Muslims[/li][li]Say the non-Muslim is, in fact, Muslim[/li][\*]Accuse the Canadian government of a cover-up[/ul] ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/177 "2017-02-02T00:30:02Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes, I understand the distinction. People who make explicit efforts to travel to these places deserve a closer look, but it’s also not exactly unprecedented to give people from “countries of concern” a closer look as well. The point of Trump’s EO is to pause things until they get a good system in place for doing that. To extend your search for computer programmer analogy, it’s kind of like saying, “we’re not taking any more applicants until we get a really good list of job requirements from the IT department”. Explain what you mean by a closer look? What is wrong with the current vetting system and what specifically should be changed about it? Below is the process that you want changed, for reference. I don’t believe we know what, if any, actual changes the current administration proposes other than stopping the process completely. > **[Infographic: The Screening Process for Refugee Entry into the United States](https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2015/11/20/infographic-screening-process-refugee-entry-united-states)** > > A step-by-step guide to the rigorous process for refugee entry into the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/178 "2017-02-02T00:59:08Z")
> [@theR](#): > > Explain what you mean by a closer look? What is wrong with the current vetting system and what specifically should be changed about it? > > Below is the process that you want changed, for reference. I don’t believe we know what, if any, actual changes the current administration proposes other than stopping the process completely. > > [Infographic: The Screening Process for Refugee Entry into the United States | whitehouse.gov](https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2015/11/20/infographic-screening-process-refugee-entry-united-states) I don’t know, I don’t see anything about weighing them against a duck’s feather. Maybe we should try that. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/179 "2017-02-02T03:35:49Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Yeah, bravery with other people’s lives. Which the left is chronically prone to be. Witness the number of people raped, robbed, maimed and killed by the hundreds of thousands if not millions of violent convicts prematurely released from prison (over and over again in many cases) due to liberal activism over the lasts 50 years, and by their passion that law abiding citizens should be relieved of their guns, which of course makes them easier targets for criminals who do have guns. > > In short, anytime there’s a violent group from whom the public needs to be protected, you can count on the left to ride off in defense of said group, seeking to be ‘brave’ with other people’s lives, safe in the knowledge that the odds are against them, as individuals, ever falling prey to said violence themselves. Having been defeated soundly on one point, **Starving Artist** moves the goalposts to another supposed ‘crime’ of the left. (Nevermind that it has literally nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of this thread…we’ll leave that aside and move on to dealing with substantive facts over the above unsupported fantasy.) Most crime rates under the Obama administration are at historic lows not seen since the mid-'60’s, with a couple of exceptions not seen since the early '70’s. [United States Crime Rates 1960-2015](http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm) You have no numbers, only vague assertions. And, during that 50 years that you complain of, Republicans held the Presidency for nearly 60% of that time. So _if_ what you complain of had actually happened (which, again, you have shown absolutely no evidence of whatsoever), the blame would be more on conservatives (historically overwhelmingly Republican, at least during that 50 years you speak of) than liberals. No matter, facts don’t matter when it comes to hating liberals. It’s all about feelings. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708/180 "2017-02-02T07:45:01Z")
Question: How does crime under Obama relate to a thread about a poll on the Muslim ban? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/49-vs-41-in-favour-of-muslim-ban/778708.md?page=10)