# 50,000 reasons not to trust the USPS **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-000-reasons-not-to-trust-the-usps/702768 "2014-10-28T15:58:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-000-reasons-not-to-trust-the-usps/702768/1 "2014-10-28T15:58:59Z")
In [this New York Times article,](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/us/us-secretly-monitoring-mail-of-thousands.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0) it is revealed that the USPS > [@](#): > > approved nearly 50,000 requests last year _alone_ from law enforcement agencies and its own internal inspection unit to secretly monitor the mail of Americans for use in criminal and national security investigations. . A little worrisome, but not enough evidence to accuse them of malfeasance, you say? As you read on, we find out that > [@](#): > > The audit, which was reported on earlier by Politico, found that in many cases the Postal Service approved requests to monitor an individual’s mail without adequately describing the reason or having proper written authorization. -in fact infamous Arizona sheriff Joe Arpaio got authorization to monitor the mail of Mary Rose Wilcox, a Maricopa County supervisor, after she became critical of the way he targeted Hispanics in his immigration sweeps. Apparently, just about _any_ government agency can get access to your “private” mail with very little effort, and I think this ability needs to be tightened considerably. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-000-reasons-not-to-trust-the-usps/702768/2 "2014-10-28T16:15:32Z")
Why are you blaming the Post Office? Congress won’t give them enough money to deliver the mail, do you think they have a bank of lawyers available to deal with these ‘requests’ from law enforcement? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-000-reasons-not-to-trust-the-usps/702768/3 "2014-10-28T16:21:01Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Why are you blaming the Post Office? Congress won’t give them enough money to deliver the mail, do you think they have a bank of lawyers available to deal with these ‘requests’ from law enforcement? See the second quote in the OP. You don’t need a bank of lawyers to follow proper procedures, and if following proper procedures means that a bunch of government agencies will have to stand in hellishly long lines to get what they want, well…welcome to _our_ world. ---
**Author:** ![babygoat666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@babygoat666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/babygoat666)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-000-reasons-not-to-trust-the-usps/702768/4 "2014-10-28T16:26:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > See the second quote in the OP. You don’t need a bank of lawyers to follow proper procedures, and if following proper procedures means that a bunch of government agencies will have to stand in hellishly long lines to get what they want, well…welcome to _our_ world. I’m glad you trust law enforcement agencies to do nothing more than stand in hellishly long lines. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-000-reasons-not-to-trust-the-usps/702768/5 "2014-10-28T16:33:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > See the second quote in the OP. You don’t need a bank of lawyers to follow proper procedures, and if following proper procedures means that a bunch of government agencies will have to stand in hellishly long lines to get what they want, well…welcome to _our_ world. I’m not saying the PO is blameless here, but they didn’t initiate these requests, and I doubt they have the resources to deal with the issue. Go after law enforcement who are supposed to be justifiying their surveillance requests. The PO is just another government agency, and one that has to be self-funded. I wouldn’t expect them to put up a battle when another government agency makes a request. Who at the PO do you think will be doing the job of reviewing these requests? I can tell you that your local postmaster doesn’t have the knowledge or resources to do it. ETA: This is awful, I just think you should be complaining about law enforcement and not the pawns at the USPS. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-000-reasons-not-to-trust-the-usps/702768/6 "2014-10-28T16:35:19Z")
How do you propose keeping the mailman from reading the addresses on the outside of your mail? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-000-reasons-not-to-trust-the-usps/702768/7 "2014-10-28T16:36:07Z")
> [@babygoat666](#): > > I’m glad you trust law enforcement agencies to do nothing more than stand in hellishly long lines. That was obviously a joking reference to the long lines we sometimes have to suffer through at the post office, but there does need to be some _enforced_ restrictions as to which agencies can monitor our mail and for what reason. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-000-reasons-not-to-trust-the-usps/702768/8 "2014-10-28T16:37:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How do you propose keeping the mailman from reading the addresses on the outside of your mail? > > Regards, > Shodan Funny. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-000-reasons-not-to-trust-the-usps/702768/9 "2014-10-28T16:37:59Z")
Do you trust your ISP? Your email provider? Your cell phone carrier? Your bank? ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-000-reasons-not-to-trust-the-usps/702768/10 "2014-10-28T16:45:32Z")
Just for 43, what they are doing (and per the article) is called a “mail cover”. It’s a log of the address/return address of incoming/outgoing mail and possibly some other data regarding it. What it is not is actually opening the mail and reading the contents. I’ve used mail covers myself and have spoken about them on these boards. They’ve been done forever and most times do not require a warrant or court order as the envelopes/packages are not being opened. Keep in mind there are times the USPS can open your package without your knowledge or permission. Ship something via Media Mail and see what they tell you at the counter. Whether any of what I’ve posted here flies in the face and insults our libertarian sensibilities is a keen matter of debate. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-000-reasons-not-to-trust-the-usps/702768/11 "2014-10-28T16:48:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How do you propose keeping the mailman from reading the addresses on the outside of your mail? > > Regards, > Shodan For myself, I’d prefer he didn’t additionally read the letters in the inside. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-000-reasons-not-to-trust-the-usps/702768/12 "2014-10-28T17:01:40Z")
I wonder about the increase from an average of about 8,000 requests a year from 2001 to 2012, to close to 50,000 requests in 2013 alone. That is one hell of a jump. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-000-reasons-not-to-trust-the-usps/702768/13 "2014-10-28T17:23:29Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > For myself, I’d prefer he didn’t additionally read the letters in the inside. So would I, which why it is reassuring to see from the article that he isn’t. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-000-reasons-not-to-trust-the-usps/702768/14 "2014-10-28T17:27:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So would I, which why it is reassuring to see from the article that he isn’t. > > Regards, > Shodan Unless you think your postman is collecting information about your personal mail in an effort to gain information about your life, I have no idea why the hell you are even bringing this up. Care to get with the program? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-000-reasons-not-to-trust-the-usps/702768/15 "2014-10-28T17:48:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I wonder about the increase from an average of about 8,000 requests a year from 2001 to 2012, to close to 50,000 requests in 2013 alone. That is one hell of a jump. But not entirely out of expectation given the post 9/11 behavior of government security agencies. I disagree strongly with the ‘but 9/11 changed everything’ argument that people use to justify most anything these days but to single this thing out seems silly. There’s a lot more going on in the name of ‘protection’ than just that and most of it should - in my opinion - be curtailed. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-000-reasons-not-to-trust-the-usps/702768/16 "2014-10-28T17:49:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Unless you think your postman is collecting information about your personal mail in an effort to gain information about your life, I have no idea why the hell you are even bringing this up. Care to get with the program? I didn’t bring it up, **Claverhouse** did. To him I pointed out that it isn’t happening, and to you I pointed out that it is going to be difficult to craft a law stopping the mailman from reading the addresses on your mail. Care to actually read what’s in front of you? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-000-reasons-not-to-trust-the-usps/702768/17 "2014-10-28T17:56:26Z")
Let’s keep it from becoming personal, people. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-000-reasons-not-to-trust-the-usps/702768/18 "2014-10-28T18:01:08Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > But not entirely out of expectation given the post 9/11 behavior of government security agencies. > > I disagree strongly with the ‘but 9/11 changed everything’ argument that people use to justify most anything these days but to single this thing out seems silly. There’s a lot more going on in the name of ‘protection’ than just that and most of it should - in my opinion - be curtailed. When “looking at the big picture”, singling any one thing out can be made to look silly, but I don’t think focusing in on one aspect of the bigger problem is a bad thing-otherwise the conversation just becomes another “Government am bad, but whatcha gonna do about it?” circle jerk. Also, I believe I mentioned tightening up the program, not curtailing it. ---
**Author:** ![babygoat666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@babygoat666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/babygoat666)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-000-reasons-not-to-trust-the-usps/702768/19 "2014-10-28T19:05:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That was obviously a joking reference to the long lines we sometimes have to suffer through at the post office, but there does need to be some _enforced_ restrictions as to which agencies can monitor our mail and for what reason. I get you, I’m just saying that I don’t think that the USPS could just tell law enforcement they have to wait, and that would be the end of it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-000-reasons-not-to-trust-the-usps/702768/20 "2014-10-28T19:13:20Z")
> [@babygoat666](#): > > I get you, I’m just saying that I don’t think that the USPS could just tell law enforcement they have to wait, and that would be the end of it. If the USPS doesn’t have enough backbone to stand up to local sheriff Joe Arpaio and make him legally justify a mail cover then there is a real problem, in my opinion. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-000-reasons-not-to-trust-the-usps/702768.md?page=2)