# 50 years ago Maris hits 61, still not in the Hall **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 2, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-years-ago-maris-hits-61-still-not-in-the-hall/598361 "2011-10-02T17:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-years-ago-maris-hits-61-still-not-in-the-hall/598361/1 "2011-10-02T17:22:23Z")
Yesterday, (Saturday) was the 50 anniversary of Roger Maris’ 61st home run that broke the Babe Ruth’s HR record. Roger took more games to hit them, _but did it in fewer at bats_. And he was hated for it. If anyone would have been “allowed” to break the Babe’s record, it would have been Mantle. The pressure Maris felt during the record chase was probably the worse any player ever felt in the history of sport, but somehow he did it. And then the steroid trio of McGwire, Sosa and Bonds buried his record for good. Maris is only one of two players in MLB history that won 2 consecutive MVP awards and is not in the Hall of Fame. Yes, I know he hit .260 lifetime, but don’t you think this guy belongs in the Hall? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-years-ago-maris-hits-61-still-not-in-the-hall/598361/2 "2011-10-02T17:24:35Z")
He had some great years and is more deserving then Sosa, Bonds or McGwire but he is not a Hall of Fame player overall. I say that as a lifetime Yankee fan that owns a copy of 61\*. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-years-ago-maris-hits-61-still-not-in-the-hall/598361/3 "2011-10-02T18:14:45Z")
Sorry…two huge seasons does not a Hall of Famer make. Yes, his star burned very brightly in '60 and '61. But… He was only an All-Star four times. Despite hitting 61 home runs in 1961, he only hit 214 over the rest of his career. He only played in 130 or more games in five seasons. Like it or not, the Hall of Fame doesn’t exist to recognize tremendous single-season accomplishments. It’s there to recognize career accomplishments. On that metric, Maris simply falls far short. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-years-ago-maris-hits-61-still-not-in-the-hall/598361/4 "2011-10-02T18:20:46Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Like it or not, the Hall of Fame doesn’t exist to recognize tremendous single-season accomplishments. His bat is there. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-years-ago-maris-hits-61-still-not-in-the-hall/598361/5 "2011-10-02T18:30:27Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Like it or not, the Hall of Fame doesn’t exist to recognize tremendous single-season accomplishments. It’s there to recognize career accomplishments. Like it or not, the HoF is there to recognize whatever the hell that year’s voters want. There is _no_ fixed criteria for entry (other than the rules for eligibility - which say nothing about accomplishments). In fact, the HoF’s own [web page](http://baseballhall.org/) says: > [@Hall of Fame](#): > > The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum is an independent, non-profit educational institution dedicated to fostering an appreciation of the historical development of baseball and its impact on our culture by collecting, preserving, exhibiting and interpreting its collections for a global audience as well as honoring those who have made outstanding contributions to our national pastime. Emphasis added. It says nothing about those contributions having to be career accomplishments. Do you think that if Jackie Robinson had had a mediocre career they wouldn’t have elected him? Sometimes a one season accomplishment is enough to be an “outstanding contribution” and I for one think Maris’ record qualifies. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-years-ago-maris-hits-61-still-not-in-the-hall/598361/6 "2011-10-02T18:42:56Z")
I’m a big Roger Maris fan (I was there when he hit #61), but he is not a hall-of-famer. The HOF has always gone to players who were great over a career rather then a couple of seasons. Otherwise you’d have people like Denny McClain, Mark Fidrych, and Joe Charbonneu as members. In fact, there’s a better case for McClain – consecutive Cy Youngs, for starters. ---
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-years-ago-maris-hits-61-still-not-in-the-hall/598361/7 "2011-10-02T18:45:15Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > His bat is there. 😉 Where’s the “61” ball? Could be worth something. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-years-ago-maris-hits-61-still-not-in-the-hall/598361/8 "2011-10-02T19:03:08Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > It says nothing about those contributions having to be career accomplishments. Do you think that if Jackie Robinson had had a mediocre career they wouldn’t have elected him? Fair enough. In that Robinson scenario, it’s hard to say. If he had a mediocre career, he probably wouldn’t have had a long career, either. It’s difficult to look back in retrospect and say what the HoF voters would have done. Parenthetically, Larry Doby, the first black to play in the American League, is a HoFer, but had to wait for the Veterans Committee to elect him in 1998, nearly 40 years after he retired…and he _was_ an 8-time All-Star. At any rate, I think that “leading the integration of baseball” is on a different plane than setting the single-season HR record. > [@Zakalwe](#): > > Sometimes a one season accomplishment is enough to be an “outstanding contribution” and I for one think Maris’ record qualifies. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on that one. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-years-ago-maris-hits-61-still-not-in-the-hall/598361/9 "2011-10-02T19:16:30Z")
> [@Mangosteen](#): > > Where’s the “61” ball? Could be worth something. It’s also there. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-years-ago-maris-hits-61-still-not-in-the-hall/598361/10 "2011-10-02T19:22:47Z")
> [@Mangosteen](#): > > Yesterday, (Saturday) was the 50 anniversary of Roger Maris’ 61st home run that broke the Babe Ruth’s HR record. Roger took more games to hit them, _but did it in fewer at bats_. > > And he was hated for it. If anyone would have been “allowed” to break the Babe’s record, it would have been Mantle. The pressure Maris felt during the record chase was probably the worse any player ever felt in the history of sport, but somehow he did it. > > And then the steroid trio of McGwire, Sosa and Bonds buried his record for good. > > Maris is only one of two players in MLB history that won 2 consecutive MVP awards and is not in the Hall of Fame. > > Yes, I know he hit .260 lifetime, but don’t you think this guy belongs in the Hall? No. Maris was a pretty good player but lots of players are better and aren’t in the Hall of Fame. I can name two dozen, easily. His flukey 61-homer season (for which he was not as “hated” as people would like to remember, or as the fast-and-loose-with-the-facts TV-movie 61\* would have you believe) doesn’t really merit a plaque. Yes, he won two MVP Awards. Both were pretty bad choices; Mickey Mantle was a better player in both seasons. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-years-ago-maris-hits-61-still-not-in-the-hall/598361/11 "2011-10-02T19:51:00Z")
In the major metrics for a hitter: SLG%, OPS, TB, OBP Maris was in the top 10 for SLG% only 3 times in his career, leading the league once. He was in the top 10 for OPS only 3 times, never leading the league. He was in the top 10 for TB 4 times, leading the league once. He was never in the top 10 for OBP. Now, even the “glamor” statistics that we all know people pay more attention to like HR, BA, RBI, Maris fares no better: He was top 10 on HR 4 years, leading once (obviously.) His career HR numbers put him behind 164 others, and any HoFer with fewer career HR than Maris are persons like Robin Yount who did more than just swing for power. If you want to get in as a slugger (and Maris couldn’t be thought of as anything else) you need a lot more than 275 HR. People know guys like Brooks Robinson can get in on totally non-offensive merits, but that’s a rare situation. For BA, Maris was never known to hit for average (which is irrelevant to his value offensively, but it’s an important metric nonetheless from a publicity standpoint.) For RBI Maris was only on the leaderboards 3 times, leading two of those times. His numbers just aren’t there, in all honesty. Additionally, I would argue that the fact that the record he broke is a single season record undermines a lot of the claim that he should get in “just for that reason.” Lots of players have had fluke years, but that doesn’t make them Hall of Famers. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-years-ago-maris-hits-61-still-not-in-the-hall/598361/12 "2011-10-02T21:27:03Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Sometimes a one season accomplishment is enough to be an “outstanding contribution” and I for one think Maris’ record qualifies. In 1961, Maris had one of the greatest non-steroid (I presume he wasn’t on steroids) seasons in MLB history. Several committees over several years have decided not to elect him to the Hall of Fame. If a player can be elected to the Hall of Fame based on one season, and Maris hasn’t been elected despite having one of the greatest seasons in history, I have to conclude that your interpretation of election criteria is a bit off from official policy. It may not be explicitly stated in the charter (opening the way for wild speculation), but it appears that the committees consider the totality of a player’s career, not just one or even a few seasons. If players can get elected for one great season, despite a mediocre career, we’d see a lot more people in the Hall of Fame. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-years-ago-maris-hits-61-still-not-in-the-hall/598361/13 "2011-10-02T21:38:02Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > … I have to conclude that your interpretation of election criteria is a bit off from official policy. It is. From the election [rules](http://baseballhall.org/hall-famers/rules-election/bbwaa): > [@](#): > > 1. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played. > > 2. Automatic Elections: No automatic elections based on performances such as a batting average of .400 or more for one (1) year, pitching a perfect game or similar outstanding achievement shall be permitted. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-years-ago-maris-hits-61-still-not-in-the-hall/598361/14 "2011-10-02T21:38:07Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Like it or not, the HoF is there to recognize whatever the hell that year’s voters want. And don’t claim that election is based on the whim of “this year’s voters” because many “this year’s voters” have chosen not to elect Maris. ---
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-years-ago-maris-hits-61-still-not-in-the-hall/598361/15 "2011-10-02T22:29:37Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > And don’t claim that election is based on the whim of “this year’s voters” because many “this year’s voters” have chosen not to elect Maris. Did he ever get any votes? ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-years-ago-maris-hits-61-still-not-in-the-hall/598361/16 "2011-10-02T22:42:08Z")
> [@Mangosteen](#): > > Did he ever get any votes? A [few](http://baseballhall.org/hall-famers/bbwaa-voting/player?player=Maris%2C++Roger), but never enough to get close. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-years-ago-maris-hits-61-still-not-in-the-hall/598361/17 "2011-10-02T22:46:03Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > In 1961, Maris had one of the greatest non-steroid (I presume he wasn’t on steroids) seasons in MLB history. The thing is that he didn’t. I know that’s not wholly relevant to your point, which is a valid one, but it’s important in examining Maris’s credentials. Maris hit 61 home runs and that’s a hell of a lot of home runs, but hitting home runs was all he did. He had a hell of a year, but it wasn’t “one of the greatest non-steroid seasons” in history by any stretch of the term. He wasn’t even the best hitter on his own team. It was about as good a season as Jose Bautista had last year. Meaningly no disrespect to Maris, his 1961 was, in my honest opinion, probably not one of the 300 best seasons in MLB history among hitters. Maris was a really good player, but he wasn’t really great aside from a few years and he had a really short career by HoF standards. [QUOTE=Mangosteen] Did he ever get any votes? [/QUOTE] Maris peaked at 43.1% of the vote. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-years-ago-maris-hits-61-still-not-in-the-hall/598361/18 "2011-10-02T22:46:47Z")
> [@Mangosteen](#): > > Did he ever get any votes? Oh, yeah. He got over 20% his first year on the ballot, but didn’t gain until after he died. His last year on the ballot he got 40-something%. His last time on the Veterans Committee, he did not make the list of (10) finalists. The Veterans Committee seems to be changing the rules every year, so who knows? But I’ll be surprised if they elect him. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-years-ago-maris-hits-61-still-not-in-the-hall/598361/19 "2011-10-02T22:56:24Z")
You guys are nuts! The man who broke Babe Friggin’ Ruth’s home run record doesn’t belong in the Hall of Fame? Sheesh… ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-years-ago-maris-hits-61-still-not-in-the-hall/598361/20 "2011-10-02T23:11:39Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > It is. From the election [rules](http://baseballhall.org/hall-famers/rules-election/bbwaa): Rule 5 says nothing about the length of the criteria used. In fact, frankly, it’s useless. All I have to do is say “I was voting on his integrity, sportsmanship, and contributions.” and what are they gonna do? Rule 6 is weird since there isn’t a mechanism for “automatic elections” for anybody. So, the exclusion for one season achievements is…odd. Are you saying that if, in 1988, Maris had gotten 76.1% of the votes, the rules would have kept him out? If so, why was he allowed on the ballot? Obviously, it’s arguable about whether or not Maris should be in. It is, however, uncontestable that the rules _allow_ him to be in if he receives the requisite votes. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/50-years-ago-maris-hits-61-still-not-in-the-hall/598361.md?page=2)