# 500K tech jobs to leave NYC and head overseas. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 2, 2003, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/500k-tech-jobs-to-leave-nyc-and-head-overseas/179115 "2003-06-02T13:12:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Reuben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/54ee81/32.png) [@Reuben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reuben)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/500k-tech-jobs-to-leave-nyc-and-head-overseas/179115/41 "2003-06-03T11:59:13Z")
**sailor** your statement re “a lazy American” is laughable. We are not comparing lazy Americans to hardworking Chinese. We are comparing hardworking Americans to hardworking Chinese. And please don’t assume that I feel _entitled_ to a higher standard of living than the Chinese. It’s rather rude of you to assume this. But, as a native of this country (Britain) I certainly _do_ feel entitled to get first whack at the opportunities that arise here. A Chinese would, I am sure, feel the same way about the opportunities in China. And **China Guy** is first with the insinuation that our discontent is rooted in racism. Please note that I would be complaining just as loudly about this - probably louder in fact - if all the jobs were going to **Reubenland** where every single inhabitant is a pasty white geek just like me. Race is not and never was the issue. Sidetrack: Isn’t all this _en masse_ offshore hiring a giant breach of discrimination law anyway? It seems mighty discriminatory to me. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/500k-tech-jobs-to-leave-nyc-and-head-overseas/179115/42 "2003-06-03T11:59:14Z")
Would someone tell me wtf “whinging” is? Anyway, based on the posts by the obivously employed people in this thread I guess we should shut down all these engineering programs in our universities around the country. Keep a couple open for rich “hobbists” that wanna torture themselves with thermo or solid state physics for fun, but stop pumping kids full of bullshit about how “the hard work in college will pay off” when they struggle thru a EE or an ME. The thing that pisses me off about people like sailor is that they are not trying to find a job to take care of their family yet they stand by and bitch at the people who are pissed because they can’t find a fucking job to pay their bills. You will be singing a different tune if/when you get laid off because your job is sent off to China. Then you will be in line for your unemployment check just like the rest of tech America. Pretty soon you are going to be advising americans to move to india to work. The infuriating thing about people like you who criticise others who complain about outsourcing is that you act like we are trying to get get rich here. 90% of the unemployeed techs/engineers out there are looking for a job just to live. $40 grand a year. Is that a “high standard of living”? Just because someone has 3 bedrooms makes it a “high standard of living”? What do you want? You want american engineers, who paid 40K+ to put themselves thru school, to take jobs making 8 bucks an hour just because the chinese can do it for that much? I hope you don’t end up with a pink slip and find out that your skills are easily replacec by dollar-a-day asian workers because then you will see what it is like on the other side of the fence. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/500k-tech-jobs-to-leave-nyc-and-head-overseas/179115/43 "2003-06-03T12:02:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > It seems to me your definition of “fair” its that which benefits you. Do you think it is “fair” that a lazy American can make a higher salary than an industrious Chinese person who has worked and still works ten times as hard? Because I do not think that is fair. This is a gross mischaracterization of my postion, and a highly disengenious description of the average American [or substitute any of several European countries] worker. 1.9MM workers lost jobs in 2001 due to the telecom slowdown alone, and electronic equipment as a whole is at 50% of year 2000 output for N. America. Europe is far worse. Forgive me if I think the mechanism is more complex than laziness. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/500k-tech-jobs-to-leave-nyc-and-head-overseas/179115/44 "2003-06-03T12:08:05Z")
Clarification: That 1.9MM number is supposed to be telecom related. The direct number would be closer to .5MM. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/500k-tech-jobs-to-leave-nyc-and-head-overseas/179115/45 "2003-06-03T12:08:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stinkpalm \* > \*\*Would someone tell me wtf “whinging” is? > > . \*\* Whinge = Whine. European version. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/500k-tech-jobs-to-leave-nyc-and-head-overseas/179115/46 "2003-06-03T12:18:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reuben \* > **sailor** your statement re “a lazy American” is laughable. We are not comparing lazy Americans to hardworking Chinese. We are comparing hardworking Americans to hardworking Chinese. _I_ am comparing lazy Americans to hard working Chinese and it is a fact that an American who did not get any education can earn more than a Chinese engineer. To me _that_ is unfair. And no question that a hard-working American earns _much_ more than a hard-working Chinese. Very unfair. > [@](#): > > And please don’t assume that I feel _entitled_ to a higher standard of living than the Chinese. It’s rather rude of you to assume this. But, as a native of this country (Britain) I certainly _do_ feel entitled to get first whack at the opportunities that arise here. A Chinese would, I am sure, feel the same way about the opportunities in China. You can feel whatever you want but you are not entitled to force your fellow countrymen to give you something they would rather give someone else. That’s all I’m saying. I do not think you are entitled to anything other than what your fellow countrymen want to give you in exchange for your labor. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/500k-tech-jobs-to-leave-nyc-and-head-overseas/179115/47 "2003-06-03T12:22:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stinkpalm \* > The thing that pisses me off about people like sailor is that they are not trying to find a job to take care of their family yet they stand by and bitch at the people who are pissed because they can’t find a fucking job to pay their bills. You will be singing a different tune if/when you get laid off because your job is sent off to China. Then you will be in line for your unemployment check just like the rest of tech America. Pretty soon you are going to be advising americans to move to india to work. You are an idiot for assuming what my situation is. You have absolutely NO idea of what my situation may be so stick to arguing substance and quit guessing what my situation is. Now, suppose I have been unemployed for a long time and I am in dire finanial trouble: give me a reason why I should buy your product at twice the price when I can buy the same product made in China at half the price. [Edited for coding at writer’s request. Lynn] ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/500k-tech-jobs-to-leave-nyc-and-head-overseas/179115/48 "2003-06-03T12:41:07Z")
Do you techies really think that your complaints are new? America didn’t go through exactly the same thing with the auto industry in the 1970’s? Manufacturing of all types has been going overseas for decades, and people in those industries complained the same exact way. Our economy hasn’t been destroyed by this, in fact, we have ALL benefited from this in the form of lower priced products. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/500k-tech-jobs-to-leave-nyc-and-head-overseas/179115/49 "2003-06-03T12:44:56Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\* You are an idiot for assuming what my situation is. You have absolutely NO idea of what my situation may be so stick to arguing substance and quit guessing what my situation is._\* Tell me what your situation is then? I think, based on your previous posts in the year I have been here, that I have a pretty good idea of what your situation probably is, and your situation isn’t bad. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \*\*\* > Now, suppose I have been unemployed for a long time and I am in dire finanial trouble: give me a reason why I should buy your product at twice the price when I can buy the same product made in China at half the price. \*\* Have you been unemployed for a long time? Are you in dire financial trouble? If you are then we can talk. But you are then what’s your point? You are in no position to guess what a poor person will do with their money. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/500k-tech-jobs-to-leave-nyc-and-head-overseas/179115/50 "2003-06-03T12:45:13Z")
Actually, the reason I favor unionization would be for better categorization of tech workers, mostly. A unified and independent series of cert tests, that sort of thing. So you could say the requirements of a job require a Master Sysadmin and two Journeyman PFYs, or some such thing. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/500k-tech-jobs-to-leave-nyc-and-head-overseas/179115/51 "2003-06-03T12:49:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cheesesteak \* > \*\*Do you techies really think that your complaints are new? America didn’t go through exactly the same thing with the auto industry in the 1970’s? Manufacturing of all types has been going overseas for decades, and people in those industries complained the same exact way. Our economy hasn’t been destroyed by this, in fact, we have ALL benefited from this in the form of lower priced products. \*\* I can’t speak for EVERY tech job, but there is a small difference between manufacturing jobs and engineering jobs being outsourced. The difference being that a guy working on the line at the Ford factory probably didn’t drop $40K+ to educate himself to do that job. Its easy to go from blue collar job to blue collar job, but when you are paying $400 bucks a month for 10 years on a student loan that you took out to educate yourself for a particular line of work its not so easy to just change fields. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/500k-tech-jobs-to-leave-nyc-and-head-overseas/179115/52 "2003-06-03T12:50:15Z")
God forbid people in India get jobs in the high tech field. What a horrible thing that would be. Soon they might even have a developed economy and start building their own cars or something. The bastards. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/500k-tech-jobs-to-leave-nyc-and-head-overseas/179115/53 "2003-06-03T12:56:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stinkpalm \* > \*\*The thing that pisses me off about people like sailor is that they are not trying to find a job to take care of their family yet they stand by and bitch at the people who are pissed because they can’t find a fucking job to pay their bills. You will be singing a different tune if/when you get laid off because your job is sent off to China. Then you will be in line for your unemployment check just like the rest of tech America. Pretty soon you are going to be advising americans to move to india to work. \*\* Actually, I note with interest that there’s some decent paying jobs in India just now with programming firms there looking to recruit American and European team leaders to act as liasons with their customers abroad and bridge the culture gap. A smart move by these firms, and if adopted wide scale no doubt it will help to make outsourcing even more attractive. Now you can whine and moan all you like, but it won’t change a fucking thing. Some jobs can be done much more cheaply abroad. Either adapt to this, or face a hard time. It’s your choice, because capitalism isn’t going to take your feelings into consideration. It’s going to happily distribute work to the most efficient places for getting it done. I must admit that I’m curious if you also object to companies like Nike and Levi having their production centres in cheap labour countries. I’m also curious as to the car you drive. Basically I wonder if you’re always so critical of cheap international production, or if it’s only when it affects you adversely. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/500k-tech-jobs-to-leave-nyc-and-head-overseas/179115/54 "2003-06-03T13:08:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Waverly \* > These line by line dissectionist parsings never fail to piss me off. Tough shit. > [@](#): > > [li]No, I don’t offer a formal definition of fairness, but I do give several examples of unfair practices, explaining two in detail. Maybe I’m not completely literate, because I thought I had communicated clearly.[/li] The two examples hardly were well informed or supported your case particularly well. > [@](#): > > [li]”And?” This is an explanation for why labor costs, taken in isolation, are a red herring. A point I think you just agreed to.[/li] > [@](#): > > [li]Yeah, talk to Eastman Kodak about how well their suit against Fuji went. For small to midsize companies, I’ll refer them to you for an explanation as to how they fund such a suit and survive while it is being fought.[/li] Well, just bringing a suit doesn’t mean you’re right, now does it my dear little innocent fair trader? However, bringing > [@](#): > > [li]As you state, international IP laws do not yet exist.[/li] No, actually I did not state that. I noted that TRIPS is part of WTO ascension now and that I actually believe that developed world IP rights may be too restrictive at present in non-science fields esp. [quote] [li]Don’t get me wrong, emerging economies deserve a chance to grow, but there are several _huge_ sectors that face unfair competition. I don’t think they will be comforted by the thought that, in the aggregate, you feel things are slanted the other way.[/li][/QUOTE] I disagree the competition is “unfair” as a general matter. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/500k-tech-jobs-to-leave-nyc-and-head-overseas/179115/55 "2003-06-03T13:10:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stinkpalm \* > Tell me what your situation is then? I think, based on your previous posts in the year I have been here, that I have a pretty good idea of what your situation probably is, and your situation isn’t bad. You have no clue of what my situation is and I cannot see how it would be relevant anyway. But, assuming my situation is good, could it be because I have made better choices than those who are worse off? > [@](#): > > Have you been unemployed for a long time? Are you in dire financial trouble? If you are then we can talk. But you are then what’s your point? You are in no position to guess what a poor person will do with their money. I was not aware that being employed would disqualify one from having a valid opinion. I am in no position to guess a poor person would rather buy the same product for a lower price? I think I understand why you may be unemployed. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/500k-tech-jobs-to-leave-nyc-and-head-overseas/179115/56 "2003-06-03T13:13:02Z")
There is a difference between your employer offering housing and other “perks” being construed as a subsidy, and the government or subsidizing production with tax credits or outright cash. Can anyone say American Wheat Farmers? Oh, since this is the pit, fuck all of you. I used to work in an industry that is perhaps 1/4 the size that it was in 1990. Investment banking if you care. And no, while I made a decent salary, I didn’t make millions. I’ve been downsized a couple of times. That’s fucking life and that’s goddamn capitalism. Now I work for a high tech company that is also responsible for outsourcing. The help center run in China is 1/6 the cost of the US for higher customer satisfaction (granted I don’t know how that is defined). India is even cheaper. Ummmm ya, all of you caught up in the dot boom dream bitching can take a reality check. What used to be worth 80k isn’t any more. Deal with it or start a union or piss and moan on a message board about how unfair it is. I live in a very capitalist country. You best wake up and smell the competition and think about your value add. Hint: it’s not the passport you hold. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/500k-tech-jobs-to-leave-nyc-and-head-overseas/179115/57 "2003-06-03T13:24:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\* You have no clue of what my situation is and I cannot see how it would be relevant anyway. But, assuming my situation is good, could it be because I have made better choices than those who are worse off? I was not aware that being employed would disqualify one from having a valid opinion. I am in no position to guess a poor person would rather buy the same product for a lower price? > > I think I understand why you may be unemployed. \*\* Who said I am unemployed? I am currently employed and wrapping up my EE. I am going (trying) back into the AF to do engineering work because its the only place I know I can get a job doing what I want to do and make enough money to take care of my daughter. As far as the relevancy of your situation, I think it is relevant when you pass off such a judgemental attitude about the people around you. If you were an unemployed engineer you would be right here bitching with the rest of the gang. Your attitude of “I have a job, this doesn’t affect me, quit bitching” is pretty shitty. Out of curiosity, how old are you? My guess is somewhere between your early to mid 50’s. Am I right? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/500k-tech-jobs-to-leave-nyc-and-head-overseas/179115/58 "2003-06-03T13:25:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Uzi \* > Compete against the top 10% in your industry and you will always have a job and very good pay. I agree. Capable people make their own success. I have nothing against someone who chooses to take life easy but he should not expect others to support him. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/500k-tech-jobs-to-leave-nyc-and-head-overseas/179115/59 "2003-06-03T13:31:30Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Stinkpalm \* As far as the relevancy of your situation, I think it is relevant when you pass off such a judgemental attitude about the people around you. If you were an unemployed engineer you would be right here bitching with the rest of the gang. Your attitude of “I have a job, this doesn’t affect me, quit bitching” is pretty shitty. [quote] I am sorry if I believe the people in China are human beings who deserve my money as much as you do. And you still do not have a clue about me or my situation which, in any case, is totally irrelevant. My money goes to whoever gives me most value for it whether he is black or white, Patagonian or Himalayan. What I do with _my_ money is _my_ business and the government should not extort money from me to subsidize people I do not wish to buy from. You can bitch all you want and that will not bring you success. Whhile losers bitch others work hard and find success. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/500k-tech-jobs-to-leave-nyc-and-head-overseas/179115/60 "2003-06-03T13:31:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > Tough shit. _shrug_ My opinion. I’m entitled to think that it’s abused as a crude method of removing context - you are entitled to say tough shit. > [@](#): > > The two examples hardly were well informed or supported your case particularly well. I’m glad you think so. Don’t bother supporting this opinion. You word is good enough for me. > [@](#): > > Well, just bringing a suit doesn’t mean you’re right, now does it my dear little innocent fair trader? Yeah, every law suit is right by definition. :rolleyes: If you check, you might note that I mentioned a specific suit. Are you saying that Kodak did not have a valid compaint? Is it also tough shit for smaller companies without the resources to enter into a legal battle? What do you bring to this discussion other than a condescending attitude and the unique ability to look at individual sentences devoid of context? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/500k-tech-jobs-to-leave-nyc-and-head-overseas/179115.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/500k-tech-jobs-to-leave-nyc-and-head-overseas/179115.md?page=4)