# 55 year old home, all 2 prong outlets replaced with ungrounded 3 prong-remedy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 25, 2019, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/55-year-old-home-all-2-prong-outlets-replaced-with-ungrounded-3-prong-remedy/834510 "2019-05-25T17:47:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/55-year-old-home-all-2-prong-outlets-replaced-with-ungrounded-3-prong-remedy/834510/21 "2019-05-26T12:27:24Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > We have a house about that old and it took the electrician less than a day to convert the 2 prong outlets to 3. As a stop gap until you get around to it, they sell converters. > [https://www.amazon.com/Grounding-Converter-Electrical-Industrial-Appliances/dp/B01IA9UERG](https://www.amazon.com/Grounding-Converter-Electrical-Industrial-Appliances/dp/B01IA9UERG) Just to reinforce what **markn+** said. Those require the screw on the plate being grounded. Which is not all that common on really old wiring. Plus they are not all that reliable, can be easily knocked off, etc. Quick and dirty solutions to electrical wiring issues are a very bad idea. (I know from personal experience that “Romex”-style wiring was around in the mid-1950s … but only two pronged outlets were installed.) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/55-year-old-home-all-2-prong-outlets-replaced-with-ungrounded-3-prong-remedy/834510/22 "2019-05-26T13:20:30Z")
Well, this house was built mid-60s. But now I think I might have misread the OP. Is it saying some previous owner has already improperly switch over all the outlets? ZonexandScout seems to have the proper answer but I would personally leave what he suggests to a professional. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/55-year-old-home-all-2-prong-outlets-replaced-with-ungrounded-3-prong-remedy/834510/23 "2019-05-26T13:54:34Z")
Fully re-wiring will add tremendous value to your house. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/55-year-old-home-all-2-prong-outlets-replaced-with-ungrounded-3-prong-remedy/834510/24 "2019-05-26T14:18:29Z")
> [@Cayuga](#): > > I’ve never seen a full wiring job done except during the construction phase. I assume you guys didn’t open walls, that the electrician(s) fished new wire along the paths of the existing wire inside the walls. So I’m curious — how long does it take to do a whole house that way? I have 1 story on top of an unfinished basement, so I have nice access and didn’t have to open any walls. The only place I chose to was in the garage, because I’m planning on tearing out the old drywall anyway. Getting runs up/down the exterior walls got tricky sometimes, but between a bell-hanger drill bit and a fish tape it was doable. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/55-year-old-home-all-2-prong-outlets-replaced-with-ungrounded-3-prong-remedy/834510/25 "2019-05-26T14:20:34Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > A very serious potential problem was the use of aluminum wire instead of copper. If that’s the case you should definitely rewire. As a master electrician once told me, there’s a rule about when to use copper and when to use aluminum. The rule is: Use copper. Definitely true with the AA-1350 aluminum alloy that was used in the 1960s and 1970s. Modern aluminum wiring is made with the AA-8000 alloy. It’s fine to use. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/55-year-old-home-all-2-prong-outlets-replaced-with-ungrounded-3-prong-remedy/834510/26 "2019-05-26T14:26:29Z")
> [@Cayuga](#): > > I’m curious — how long does it take to do a whole house that way? Just realized I didn’t answer this question. I couldn’t remember when I started, coincidentally yesterday I checked and I pulled the permit in February 2017. So, about 2 1/2 years 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/55-year-old-home-all-2-prong-outlets-replaced-with-ungrounded-3-prong-remedy/834510/27 "2019-05-26T14:36:15Z")
> [@Cayuga](#): > > I’ve never seen a full wiring job done except during the construction phase. I assume you guys didn’t open walls, that the electrician(s) fished new wire along the paths of the existing wire inside the walls. So I’m curious — how long does it take to do a whole house that way? If there is existing conduit, not long. I wouldn’t even attempt to fish new wire if the old wiring was just installed loose in the wall. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/55-year-old-home-all-2-prong-outlets-replaced-with-ungrounded-3-prong-remedy/834510/28 "2019-05-26T14:38:27Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > However, a GFCI is not a full substitute for a ground connection. For example, all good surge protectors need a real ground. I’ve heard this mentioned on a number of occasions. But I have never understood it. A “good” surge protector will have voltage-clamping devices (e.g. MOVs, TVSs) between hot and neutral, hot and ground, and between neutral and ground. If you plug the surge protector into an un-grounded GFCI receptacle, then there is only one concern: voltage spikes between hot and neutral. And the surge protector will protect against those. Voltage spikes between hot and ground, and between neutral and ground, won’t be seen by the device. And if the device is grounded via another path, the voltage-clamping devices inside the surge protector between hot and ground, and between neutral and ground, will work. On this same subject, some older fluorescent light fixtures will be unreliable if they’re not grounded. On these fixtures the metal reflector is connected to earth ground. When power is applied to the fixture, a few microamps of current is required to flow between the bulb and metal reflector (via capacitive coupling) to get the bulb to light. It will work erratically if the metal reflector is not grounded. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/55-year-old-home-all-2-prong-outlets-replaced-with-ungrounded-3-prong-remedy/834510/29 "2019-05-26T15:57:50Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > It measures the balance of current between active and neutral. Out of balance, it assumes the missing current is flowing through you. > > I would be unhappy with just relying on a GFCI. A faulty device can be sitting with its case live, and the breaker won’t trip until you touch it. This could be ages after the fault occurs. Not a happy situation. This is why I come to the Dope. So would a human be protected in that instance? I understand that a device might not, but would the GFCI trip before the missing current roasted me, or before I even noticed a shock? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/55-year-old-home-all-2-prong-outlets-replaced-with-ungrounded-3-prong-remedy/834510/30 "2019-05-26T16:02:05Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Just to reinforce what **markn+** said. Those require the screw on the plate being grounded. Which is not all that common on really old wiring. Plus they are not all that reliable, can be easily knocked off, etc. > > Quick and dirty solutions to electrical wiring issues are a very bad idea. > > (I know from personal experience that “Romex”-style wiring was around in the mid-1950s … but only two pronged outlets were installed.) Is grounding to a screw in the plate a legit way of wiring? As you can probably tell, I’m not an electrician, but that seems like a redneck solution which almost always turns out poorly. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/55-year-old-home-all-2-prong-outlets-replaced-with-ungrounded-3-prong-remedy/834510/31 "2019-05-26T16:35:03Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > This is why I come to the Dope. > > So would a human be protected in that instance? I understand that a device might not, but would the GFCI trip before the missing current roasted me, or before I even noticed a shock? Well, yes, that’s the whole purpose of GFCI. If the case were hot and just sitting on a table, the breaker won’t trip because the full current is still flowing back to neutral. As soon as you, or anything grounded, touches the case and current starts flowing through you, the GFCI will trip, just as it would if you’d stuck a fork into the hot slot. You might notice a shock but it shouldn’t harm you. A hot case sitting on a table certainly doesn’t sound like something you’d want to happen very often, but I’m not sure I see that it’s very dangerous if the GFCI works as it should and shuts off the power as soon as there’s a current imbalance. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/55-year-old-home-all-2-prong-outlets-replaced-with-ungrounded-3-prong-remedy/834510/32 "2019-05-26T19:08:31Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > So would a human be protected in that instance? I understand that a device might not, but would the GFCI trip before the missing current roasted me, or before I even noticed a shock? To expand a little bit on what **markn+** said… When a GFCI detects a difference of current (between the hot and neutral wires) between 4 mA and 6 mA, it is supposed to de-energize the circuit in less than 25 milliseconds. But that’s assuming the GFCI is working properly. Or even _functioning_, for that matter. I have had GFCI receptacles in my house that failed the self-test, yet the receptacle was still “live.” But that was a while ago. I heard the manufactures were recently forced to change the design to make them “fail-safe,” i.e. for the receptacle to be “dead” when it failed instead of “live.” So yea, a properly grounded appliance offers superior protection from shock vs. a GFCI. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/55-year-old-home-all-2-prong-outlets-replaced-with-ungrounded-3-prong-remedy/834510/33 "2019-05-26T20:26:01Z")
We bought a place that was built in I think 1933 and it still had the original wiring–cloth insulation, glass insulators. We had the entire house rewired and the breaker panel moved to a less conspicuous spot. Took three days. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/55-year-old-home-all-2-prong-outlets-replaced-with-ungrounded-3-prong-remedy/834510/34 "2019-05-26T20:40:04Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Is grounding to a screw in the plate a legit way of wiring? As you can probably tell, I’m not an electrician, but that seems like a redneck solution which almost always turns out poorly. It’s technically not “wiring”. You’re just trying to put a 3 prong plug in a two prong hole using an adapter. That has to be screwed in (which a lot of people ignore), and checked on regularly to make sure it hasn’t come loose (which virtually everyone ignores). And that assumes the user knows how to properly check that the screw actually connects to ground. That’s not a good thing. And then people get “creative”. E.g., they want to put two of these into one outlet. So one has to go in upside down which brings up hot/neutral polarity issues. And the user might “fix” this is an terrible way. Plus the screw is holding two of these so the possibility of a poor connection goes way up. Note that people make naive assumptions about electricity which can be dangerous. That center screw that’s grounded? Sure, that’s safe to touch. Grounds are always safe to touch, right? Well, in theory. But theory doesn’t mean squat when all the things that can go wrong with wiring is taken into account. There’s a bit of a leak somewhere, there’s a bit of an open connection somewhere, maybe someone connected the ground to neutral at the wrong point, etc. and you’ve got a not-so grounded “ground” that can hurt you. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/55-year-old-home-all-2-prong-outlets-replaced-with-ungrounded-3-prong-remedy/834510/35 "2019-05-26T21:05:58Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Is grounding to a screw in the plate a legit way of wiring? As you can probably tell, I’m not an electrician, but that seems like a redneck solution which almost always turns out poorly. If I’m understanding your question correctly, then no. You can’t connect a grounding conductor to anything that might accidentally become disconnected from earth by human action. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/55-year-old-home-all-2-prong-outlets-replaced-with-ungrounded-3-prong-remedy/834510/36 "2019-05-26T21:55:33Z")
> [@Cayuga](#): > > I’ve never seen a full wiring job done except during the construction phase. I assume you guys didn’t open walls, that the electrician(s) fished new wire along the paths of the existing wire inside the walls. So I’m curious — how long does it take to do a whole house that way? One story with crawlspace and attic. IIRC, they pulled most of the new wiring down from the attic. Took 2 guys about 2 days. ---
**Author:** ![harmonicamoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@harmonicamoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmonicamoon)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/55-year-old-home-all-2-prong-outlets-replaced-with-ungrounded-3-prong-remedy/834510/37 "2019-05-27T05:04:23Z")
> [@Cayuga](#): > > I’ve never seen a full wiring job done except during the construction phase. I assume you guys didn’t open walls, that the electrician(s) fished new wire along the paths of the existing wire inside the walls. So I’m curious — how long does it take to do a whole house that way? Bought the 60 year old brick house from the original owner. Bathroom didn’t even have an outlet. So, no upgrades. It was a 2,400 sqft house with basement. Took me two weeks. But I probably took a lot of breaks. I installed temporary lighting and outlets in the attic. And a new breaker panel in the basement. All new 12/3 non metallic romex. And three prong outlets. Plus coaxial cable and telephone wires in every room. But, you wouldn’t need these today. Switched outlets in the eve for Xmas lighting. Everything to code. Because of the improvements, I had it appraised and was able to refinance without the dreaded Mortgage Insurance. Saving a lot of money. But, I am a Master electrician and know all the tricks for fishing wire, And I hate mud and sheetrock. So, it was very clean. No open walls. Would have been faster if I had a helper. Because it was my house, I enjoyed doing it. And was proud of the result. It was a good selling point when it was time to sell. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/55-year-old-home-all-2-prong-outlets-replaced-with-ungrounded-3-prong-remedy/834510/38 "2019-05-27T08:51:15Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Definitely true with the AA-1350 aluminum alloy that was used in the 1960s and 1970s. Modern aluminum wiring is made with the AA-8000 alloy. It’s fine to use. We don’t use Aluminium wiring around here (high voltage, low current), so out of curiosity I looked that up, and found a random evaluation of using aluminium alloy wiring: > **[Breadth%202.pdf](https://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/thesis/portfolios/2007/TJM286/Breadth%202.pdf)** > > 682.30 KB Part of the analysis is that Copper Installation Duration: 13.810 days Aluminum Installation Duration: 10.089 days “This schedule is used to compare cost and time savings by redesigning the currently installed copper feeder distribution system to that of aluminium.” Why would Aluminium Installation be quicker? ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/55-year-old-home-all-2-prong-outlets-replaced-with-ungrounded-3-prong-remedy/834510/39 "2019-05-27T14:48:22Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > Why would Aluminium Installation be quicker? WAG: for the same ampacity, aluminum wire is much lighter than copper wire. (About half the weight.) So it’s easier to carry the rolls of wire, and easier to pull it through openings. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/55-year-old-home-all-2-prong-outlets-replaced-with-ungrounded-3-prong-remedy/834510/40 "2019-05-27T16:10:41Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > That’s what I did with my folk’s 1940’s house. > Took me around 2 days to do them all. > > Here’s the issue: the wiring is almost certainly woven insulation, and it gets extremely brittle with age. When you pull the wires out to install the new outlet, you run the risk of damaging the insulation. It means very careful, and slow going. I have a house like this. If it’s something like an overhead light fixture the insulation is often so brittle from heat exposure it disintegrates at the touch. I pull the whole box out and run layers of shrink tubing past the outlet until I hit stable insulation. Then I reinstall the box. I want the box’s wire clamp pressing on good insulation and I want the wire I’m bending to have good insulation. I’ll use 5 layers of different size shrink tubing doing this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/55-year-old-home-all-2-prong-outlets-replaced-with-ungrounded-3-prong-remedy/834510.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/55-year-old-home-all-2-prong-outlets-replaced-with-ungrounded-3-prong-remedy/834510.md?page=3)