# 5yo trans girl: "I want the fairy princess to come and make my penis into a vagina" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2006, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/5yo-trans-girl-i-want-the-fairy-princess-to-come-and-make-my-penis-into-a-vagina/360263 "2006-06-11T02:18:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marienee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@Marienee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marienee)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/5yo-trans-girl-i-want-the-fairy-princess-to-come-and-make-my-penis-into-a-vagina/360263/41 "2006-06-12T09:55:39Z")
Except for the political and social issues raised by the situation itself, I am not at all sure that this ought to be treated very much differently from any other situation where a child’s neurological development does not proceed in the usual way. As the drive to diagnose picks up issues earlier and earlier, the question comes up more often: what do we do with the possibility that maturity or maturity with some extra attention will resolve the problem? And in what way does our definition of the problem, create a problem? I do think that gender identification takes place sometime around three and that a child who consistently identifies with a gender other than the one actually expressed at the age of five is very far beyond unusual. That he apparently takes no steps to hide it suggests to me that he is at a minimum socially unusual as well. Irrespective of the parents’ attitude, by five a person with a penis certainly knows that behaving in certain ways is socially unacceptable – particularly a child with three older siblings, who has evidently been at school or in nursery for some time. I do not mean to imply anything negative by this. But it seems to me also exceedingly rare for a child this age to not attempt to comply with social norms, whether they are supported by or actively combatted by the parents. Heck, people with synesthesia (for example) generally know by five not to bring it up and that is far less primal than gender identification it seems to me. I am allowing for some simplification in the article in saying this, though; I suspect the reality is rather more complex. It always is I think. There is indeed a grey area in which a child can identify with all kinds of things, to a degree far beyond just playing at being something other than what the child is, for reasons which may or may not make sense to an adult. This is usually a coping technique used by a fairly bright child under extreme stress – pretending to be a thing which , if the child actually were that, would make whatever the situation is, “all right”. The article does not touch on this so I can’t really go any further with it. But it is also my considered opinion that the human brain is remarkably plastic and for much longer than is generally admitted, and also that neurological development isn’t nearly as clear cut as we would like to think. It is further true that, well, psychology is sometimes more art than science and the choice of therapist can make a very significant difference in terms of what would be recommeded as the best way to handle something. To the question: I think that forcing the child to behave in ways unnatural to him is wrong; but I think presenting to him a world that is other than it actually is is also wrong. I think it is a physiological matter, but I also think neurological development is not set in stone at the age of five – the overwhelming majority of children have a distinct hand preference by three or four, for example, but some do not yet and get one later and some few turn out to be entirely ambidextrous. But you cannot know for certain at five. As a practical matter, I think the child at a minimum and possibly the family needs some ongoing therapy – whether the gender identity issue persists or not. I think I would enroll the child as a boy in school. Until he is a girl, he is a boy, it seems to me, and I am unaware of an “other” option. I can’t see any benefit to pretending that he hasn’t got the body of a boy. He has. I think I would tell him that, in age appropriate ways, and I assume that his parents have done this. I think I would tell him that people expect a boy to act and dress as a boy and that I understand that now he feels that he is a girl but that these things can change. Sometimes they do and sometimes they do not, and we will deal with those things as a family as they come up. I also think that in dealing with the school I would get a 504 plan set up from the get-go to address just the issues associated with GID, mostly bullying and social issues I expect. ---
**Author:** ![SurrenderDorothy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/surrenderdorothy/32/1221_2.png) [@SurrenderDorothy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SurrenderDorothy)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/5yo-trans-girl-i-want-the-fairy-princess-to-come-and-make-my-penis-into-a-vagina/360263/42 "2006-06-12T10:19:51Z")
I definitely knew who I was when I was five. I was a little girl. My daddy was a boy, my sisters were girls, my best friend was a boy. If someone had come to me at five and said, “hey, how would you like to be a boy?” I’d have said, “yuck!” I knew that when I grew up I’d get boobs like my mom and wear dresses and have babies and kiss boys. It had nothing at all to do with sexuality. Even now, I have very little inclination either way in terms of sexuality (abnormally little, perhaps. I’m not even mildly interested in boys and I’m fifteen.) and I would absolutely hate to be a boy. When I was five, I did have ideas about what I wanted to be that I wasn’t. I wanted to be Chinese, for example. I wanted black hair and Asian features and I wanted to speak Chinese and do Chinese dances and write in Chinese and everything, but it wasn’t a matter of feeling like I didn’t belong in the body with the blonde hair and the big eyes… it was just a matter of thinking something else was beautiful and wishing I could be that. I was persistent about it, too. I never shut up about how I was going to dye my hair black and move to China, I watched videos about China and begged my parents to get me Chinese music and take me to Chinese restaurants so that I could just LOOK at Chinese things. The thing is, the parent has the control and can make the decisions and it’s very difficult for the child to communicate the difference between wishing he were a girl because he thinks girls are pretty cool and would like to be that and wishing he were a girl because he feels wrong as a boy. He may not grow out of it and grow up and get the surgery and take the hormones and be happy as could be, but he really could grow out of it. I think it is admirable of the parents to accept the child whatever way he is. As far as school goes, it really is hard to know what to do. It sounds like the parents are trying their best, and I don’t think their kid should be taken away from them. I also doubt Nicole sees herself as a “woman” as the article says. but I think that’s just funny phrasing. And I don’t think it’s a good idea to make her a poster child either. Reading further in the article, I also have to say… just because a kid has something in common with you when you were that age doesn’t make you the same person. I remember swearing never to get fat when I was a little girl and I ended up a 67 pound anorexic. That doesn’t mean that every little girl who refuses a cupcake is dooming herself to a feeding tube. I think a lot of people may be projecting their own "wish I had"s onto this poor kid, which, should this turn out to be a phase, will only confuse him further. Which is precisely why I think making her a poster child is a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/5yo-trans-girl-i-want-the-fairy-princess-to-come-and-make-my-penis-into-a-vagina/360263/43 "2006-06-12T17:51:06Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I find your ignorance profoundly troubling. There is proof that we can have a male brain in a female body (and vice versa). How’s that for a line? We can reject conditions which both have no scientific basis, and violate known laws of science? What “proof” do you speak of? Are you talking about things like [this](http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm). This is hardly proof. It’s a good hypothesis, but not what I would call proof, and certainly not as definitive as you make it seem. [Wiki](http://godseye.com/wiki/index.php?title=Transsexual) says the following: > [@WIKI](#): > > **Causes of transsexualism** > > There is no scientifically proven cause of transsexualism. However, in recent years, many theories have been proposed which suggest that the cause of transsexualism has its roots in biology. Because of this, the medical profession has slowly come to view transsexuality as a physical issue, rather than a psychological one. **However, at this time, physical causes of transsexualism have not been proven.** ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/5yo-trans-girl-i-want-the-fairy-princess-to-come-and-make-my-penis-into-a-vagina/360263/44 "2006-06-12T18:02:08Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > What “proof” do you speak of? Are you talking about things like [this](http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm). This is hardly proof. It’s a good hypothesis, but not what I would call proof, and certainly not as definitive as you make it seem. [Wiki](http://godseye.com/wiki/index.php?title=Transsexual) says the following: There gave been many scientific studies done on the brain (the hypothalamus, specifically) giving a very good indication that transsexualism is a neuroendocrinological birth disorder. I don’t have them at hand myself, but I’m sure **KellyM, Lee** or **Johanna** can link to them. Using Wikipedia as a cite is about as accurate as using a message board or a buncha friends. Which, essentially, is what Wikipedia _is_. To be fair to **foolsguinea** , I think what he meant was that _five-year-olds_ have vivid imaginations, not that transsexualism doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/5yo-trans-girl-i-want-the-fairy-princess-to-come-and-make-my-penis-into-a-vagina/360263/45 "2006-06-12T19:26:38Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > There gave been many scientific studies done on the brain (the hypothalamus, specifically) giving a very good indication that transsexualism is a neuroendocrinological birth disorder. I don’t have them at hand myself, but I’m sure **KellyM, Lee** or **Johanna** can link to them. I’d love to see them, but I doubt that comeanywhere near what would be cosidered proof of “male brains in female bodies”. > [@Eve](#): > > Using Wikipedia as a cite is about as accurate as using a message board or a buncha friends. Which, essentially, is what Wikipedia _is_. Ah, the old, “Wikipedia is nonsense when I disagree with what it says” fallacy. What makes a website any more credible? Not all of the sites are run by professionals, and most have a clear bias. Not to mention that [Wiki](http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v438/n7070/full/438900a.html) is almost as accurate as leading enclopedias. Here are is another site: [1.](http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/gender_identity_disorder.jsp) > [@](#): > > Causes and symptoms > > The cause of gender identity disorder is not known. It has been theorized that a prenatal hormonal imbalance may predispose individuals to the disorder. Problems in the individual’s family interactions or family dynamics have also been postulated as having some causal impact. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/5yo-trans-girl-i-want-the-fairy-princess-to-come-and-make-my-penis-into-a-vagina/360263/46 "2006-06-12T19:39:14Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > I’d love to see them, but I doubt that comeanywhere near what would be cosidered proof of “male brains in female bodies”. Actually, I have seen many, many factual errors on Wikipedia (I don’t know it well enough to call it “Wiki”). And if you want to start a “transsexuals are self-deluded, surgicallly mutilated lunatics” thread, I suggest you either start one, or go get a writing job for _South Park_. Anyone know **Lee** or **KellyM** or **Johanna**? They are much better hooked-up to combat this kind of pig-headed ignorance with reliable medical studies. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/5yo-trans-girl-i-want-the-fairy-princess-to-come-and-make-my-penis-into-a-vagina/360263/47 "2006-06-12T19:41:40Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Ah, the old, “Wikipedia is nonsense when I disagree with what it says” fallacy. What makes a website any more credible? Not all of the sites are run by professionals, and most have a clear bias. Not to mention that [Wiki](http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v438/n7070/full/438900a.html) is almost as accurate as leading enclopedias. That says more about the reliablity of encyclopedias than it does about the reliability of Wikipedia. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/5yo-trans-girl-i-want-the-fairy-princess-to-come-and-make-my-penis-into-a-vagina/360263/48 "2006-06-12T19:56:57Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Actually, I have seen many, many factual errors on Wikipedia (I don’t know it well enough to call it “Wiki”). And if you want to start a “transsexuals are self-deluded, surgicallly mutilated lunatics” thread, I suggest you either start one, or go get a writing job for _South Park_. I would never call it wiki myself, since that refers to the system rather than Wikipedia as a website. We use wiki systems in the RPG I work on for staff projects and a group of the players use a wiki for compiling data on skills and such. Now on to my real post, 😉 I would tend to say that diagnosing a 5 year old as being TG might be a bit young. I know anecdotes are not evidence, but my own childhood is my basis for that. I grew up as a decidedly non-traditional male. When playing I would invariably adopt the female role, if it was ‘house’ I was the mother, when we played rock band, I was the female lead singer, etc. I knew I was different from other males and if asked, I very well might have ID’d myself as female. I also knew I was attracted to boys but it wasn’t until I was a teen that I learned about being gay. As noted in the article from the OP and from my own experience, a lot of the behavior of the child could indicate TG or it could indicate being gay. It could also be a phase that they will grow out of. Obviously, IANA pyschiatrist or a doctor and this not at all to say that the child is not TG but simply my view that a diagnosis is premature. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/5yo-trans-girl-i-want-the-fairy-princess-to-come-and-make-my-penis-into-a-vagina/360263/49 "2006-06-12T20:07:30Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > I’d love to see them, but I doubt that come anywhere near what would be cosidered proof of “male brains in female bodies”. When I’m looking for more academic cites than Wikipedia, I usually first use [Google Scholar](http://scholar.google.com/), which “provides a simple way to broadly search for scholarly literature. From one place, you can search across many disciplines and sources: peer-reviewed papers, theses, books, abstracts and articles, from academic publishers, professional societies, preprint repositories, universities and other scholarly organizations.” I’ve never researched this particular topic before, but from the first page of hits for _gender dysphoria hypothalamus_ I found the following (my emphasis added in **bold** ): [Guidelines for Primary Care Trusts [PCTs] & Strategic Health Authorities [SHAs], (Annex A, Standards of Care in the Treatment of Gender Dysphoria &Transsexualism Annex B, Informed Consent Forms) (long quote, but from a much longer article): > [@](#): > > Transsexualism is not a mental illness but, rather, can be considered to be a neuro-developmental condition of the brain. Dr Harry Benjamin who introduced the syndrome to the medical community in the 1950s, favoured a biological explanation for the condition, believing that the genetic and endocrine systems provided fertile ground for its development (Benjamin, 1953).[3] The view that there are psychoneuroendocrinological links in the etiology of transsexualism has long been supported by scientists in the field (Gooren, 1990).[4] Recent research into the biological origins of gender dysphoria has provided further compelling evidence to support this interpretation. **The research demonstrates that there is a specific sex-reversed brain organisation in trans people** ; this indicates that there is a biological predisposition for transsexualism. Several sexually dimorphic nuclei have been found in the hypothalamic area of the brain, (Allen & Gorski, 1990; Swaab et al, 2001), [5][6] but **one is of particular interest, the sexually dimorphic limbic nucleus called the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria-terminalis [BSTc]**. In males, this structure is twice as large as in females and has almost double the number of neurons [nerve cells] (Zhou et al 1995; Kruijver et al 2000; Chung et al 2002).[7][8][9] **In individuals experiencing severe gender dysphoria, this area is differentiated in opposition to their chromosomal and gonadal sex characteristics and the external appearance of the genitalia. Hence it may be inferred that the sexually dimorphic BSTc is an important part of the neural circuit involved in the development and establishment of gender identity and that reversal of its neuroanatomical sex-differentiation, creates a strong predisposition towards a gender identity which, in > trans individuals, is at odds with their other sex characteristics.** > > This atypical brain differentiation has been described in two main pieces of research. The first, published in Nature (Zhou et al, 1995)[7], was followed in 2000 by a second study, which was a refinement of the first, and was carried out on much of the same brain material. This study was published in The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 2034, in 2000 (Kruijver et al).[8] It demonstrated that: > > “Regardless of sexual orientation, men had almost twice as many somatostatin\* neurons as women. The number of neurons in…male-to-female transsexual [people] was similar to that of the females…. In contrast, the neuron number of a female-to male transsexual [person] was found to be in the male range….The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc [a part of the brain] and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain, clearly support the paradigm that in transsexual [individuals] sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go in opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder”.[8] (\*somatostatin is a polypeptide hormone, produced in the brain, which appears to inhibit the secretion of certain other hormones) > > Commenting on this research, Professor Richard Green, currently Research Director at the Gender Identity Clinic at Charing Cross Hospital, says: > > “The interpretation of this finding is that it provides evidence of a biological central nervous system basis for transsexualism”. He further postulates that “if a biological sexual condition of an individual is conceptualised to include psychological sex, perhaps reflective of brain sex differentiation, this status does not express itself until several years post-natally. (Green, 2001). [10] > > Sexual differentiation in the mammalian brain starts during fetal development and continues after birth (Kawata, 1995; Swaab et al 2001). [11][6] It is hypothesised that, in humans, this sexdimorphic development is influenced by hormonal effects, occurring at critical periods of development in the brain. However, the exact mechanisms are imperfectly understood. **In the case of trans individuals, factors which may contribute to an altered hormone environment in the fetal brain, implicated in its sex-reversed neuro development, may include genetic influences (Landen, 1999).[2] and/or medication, and might include stress or trauma to the mother during pregnancy.** [url=http://www.gires.org.uk/Text\_Assets/maletofemale.pdf]Male to Female Transsexual Individuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in the Central Subdivision of the Bed Nucleus of the Stria Terminalis]([http://members.aol.com/Gires3/Text\_Assets/Guidelines.pdf](http://members.aol.com/Gires3/Text_Assets/Guidelines.pdf)): > [@](#): > > The findings indicated that, regardless of sexual orientation, men had almost twice as many SOM neurons as women (P\< 0.006). The number of SOM neurons in the BSTc of the transwomen [MtF] was similar to the other women (P= 0.83). In contrast, the neuron number of a transman [FtM] was found to be in the male range. Hormone treatment or sex hormone level variations in adulthood seemed to have no impact on BSTc neuron numbers. The relative volumes of the BSTc were also measured. All of the men, regardless of sexual orientation, had volumes which were similar; **the women and the transwomen [MtF] had similar volumes; the transman [FtM] fell into the same range as the other men**. The volumes of all men versus all women and transwomen [MtF] were statistically highly significant (P\< .01) ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/5yo-trans-girl-i-want-the-fairy-princess-to-come-and-make-my-penis-into-a-vagina/360263/50 "2006-06-12T20:10:01Z")
Sorry, I forgot the hyperlink for the first cite: [Guidelines for Primary Care Trusts [PCTs] & Strategic Health Authorities [SHAs], (Annex A, Standards of Care in the Treatment of Gender Dysphoria &Transsexualism Annex B, Informed Consent Forms)](http://members.aol.com/Gires3/Text_Assets/Guidelines.pdf) (PDF) ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/5yo-trans-girl-i-want-the-fairy-princess-to-come-and-make-my-penis-into-a-vagina/360263/51 "2006-06-12T20:18:51Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > There gave been many scientific studies done on the brain (the hypothalamus, specifically) giving a very good indication that transsexualism is a neuroendocrinological birth disorder. I don’t have them at hand myself, but I’m sure **KellyM, Lee** or **Johanna** can link to them. Using Wikipedia as a cite is about as accurate as using a message board or a buncha friends. Which, essentially, is what Wikipedia _is_. I don’t have the links Eve is asking for, but they’ve been discussed on the SDMB before. Or just search the web for “BSTc” and “dimorphism”. The studies are very interesting, but they are not yet what I would consider scientifically convincing evidence. They convince **me** , but I am biased by personal experience and the experience of acquaintances I’ve known, and I do not expect an unbiased neutral observer to consider my anecdotal evidence standing alone sufficient proof. I think there is enough evidence, however, to cause a reasonable person to suspend judgment on the opposing hypothesis. I wanted to make a point about the transsexualism articles on Wikipedia. They are a battleground. A multiway battleground, at that, with radical genderqueers on one side, radical feminists on another, conservative Christians on yet another, and probably any number of other fronts that I’m not even aware of. I avoid them entirely because of this. Editors have been banned as result of the fighting over those articles. I wouldn’t put a whole lot of stock in what they say. And I say that as one of Wikipedia’s more prominent editors and champions. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/5yo-trans-girl-i-want-the-fairy-princess-to-come-and-make-my-penis-into-a-vagina/360263/52 "2006-06-12T20:38:23Z")
[This article](http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro04/web2/ehayesrowan.html) references not only the Zhou study but also other works, specifically:5)“Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus.”, Kruijver, Frank P.M. et al. Originally published in The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, Vol 85, 2034-2041 (2000. I have looked at various studies, and it they can be summarized as: when there is sexual dimorphism in the human brain in structure or measurable activity, transsexuals have characteristics of the sex that they feel themselves to be, not their chromosonal sex, in addition, one cannot induce adult brains to change to match the opposite sex by application of hormones. Why scholarly papers fall off the web and light bulb jokes stay forever, I don’t know, but they do. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/5yo-trans-girl-i-want-the-fairy-princess-to-come-and-make-my-penis-into-a-vagina/360263/53 "2006-06-12T20:53:19Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Ah, the old, “Wikipedia is nonsense when I disagree with what it says” fallacy. Did anyone here cite Wikipedia except you? No? Then for this thread, that’s a meaningless reply . You know what- I’m never citing Wikipedia in this forum again. Maybe in CS or MPSIMS if I can’t avoid it, but not in here. When people doing actual research gets the “Wiki said” treatment - and there is real debate to be had on this subject, but there has also been some nonsense in this thread - something is wrong. For all I know, I’ve cited Wikipedia in here more often than anybody, so not anymore. I’m sure there’s a Wikipedia link to prove that nobody cares about my grandstanding. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/5yo-trans-girl-i-want-the-fairy-princess-to-come-and-make-my-penis-into-a-vagina/360263/54 "2006-06-12T21:06:25Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Actually, I have seen many, many factual errors on Wikipedia (I don’t know it well enough to call it “Wiki”). And if you want to start a “transsexuals are self-deluded, surgicallly mutilated lunatics” thread, I suggest you either start one, or go get a writing job for _South Park_. > > Anyone know **Lee** or **KellyM** or **Johanna**? They are much better hooked-up to combat this kind of pig-headed ignorance with reliable medical studies. You have got to be joking? Because I called someone on making what I believe is a specious claim, I am ignorant? You should deal with your own issues and insecurity, and stop projecting. > [@Miller](#): > > That says more about the reliablity of encyclopedias than it does about the reliability of Wikipedia. Perhaps. But it also shows that things considered definitive are often flawed, and that a blanket dismissal of a cite like Wikipedia base don a supposed lack of accuracy relative to other cites (ie. enclopedias) is unfair. > [@Waenara](#): > > When I’m looking for more academic cites than Wikipedia, I usually first use [Google Scholar](http://scholar.google.com/), which “provides a simple way to broadly search for scholarly literature. From one place, you can search across many disciplines and sources: peer-reviewed papers, theses, books, abstracts and articles, from academic publishers, professional societies, preprint repositories, universities and other scholarly organizations.” Good to know. Thanks for the tip. > [@Waenara](#): > > I’ve never researched this particular topic before, but from the first page of hits for _gender dysphoria hypothalamus_ I found the following (my emphasis added in **bold** ): > > [Guidelines for Primary Care Trusts [PCTs] & Strategic Health Authorities [SHAs], (Annex A, Standards of Care in the Treatment of Gender Dysphoria &Transsexualism Annex B, Informed Consent Forms) (long quote, but from a much longer article): THis doesn’t prove anything. It is compelling evidence, but not conclusive. To claim, as that post I objected to did, that this is settled science is misleading at best. > [@Waenara](#): > > [url=http://www.gires.org.uk/Text\_Assets/maletofemale.pdf]Male to Female Transsexual Individuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in the Central Subdivision of the Bed Nucleus of the Stria Terminalis]([http://members.aol.com/Gires3/Text\_Assets/Guidelines.pdf](http://members.aol.com/Gires3/Text_Assets/Guidelines.pdf)): **I linked to this study in my first post in this thread.** Instead of reading it, people decided that I was ignoring the evidence. As I stated before, this study, while promising does not even begin to conclusively prove anything. ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/5yo-trans-girl-i-want-the-fairy-princess-to-come-and-make-my-penis-into-a-vagina/360263/55 "2006-06-12T21:11:25Z")
> [@EJsGirl](#): > > I found that absolutely hilarious. “Damme Seamus, what is that facial tattoo?” “And why is it not in woad as it should be, man?” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/5yo-trans-girl-i-want-the-fairy-princess-to-come-and-make-my-penis-into-a-vagina/360263/56 "2006-06-12T21:14:12Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Show me a study proving ogres exist, and that a human can be born with an ogre brain. If you think the kid’s brain is irrevocably female, I reserve the right to believe that some persons are irrevocably wired to be cannibals. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/5yo-trans-girl-i-want-the-fairy-princess-to-come-and-make-my-penis-into-a-vagina/360263/57 "2006-06-12T21:18:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Did anyone here cite Wikipedia except you? No? Then for this thread, that’s a meaningless reply . This makes no sense. She committed a fairly common fallacy, and was called on it. What’s your problem with that? Wikipedia is generally considered accurate and has been used to cite many things on these boards. Calling it’s accuracy into question w/o addressing the information within is faulty. > [@Marley23](#): > > You know what- I’m never citing Wikipedia in this forum again. Maybe in CS or MPSIMS if I can’t avoid it, but not in here. When people doing actual research gets the “Wiki said” treatment - and there is real debate to be had on this subject, but there has also been some nonsense in this thread - something is wrong. For all I know, I’ve cited Wikipedia in here more often than anybody, so not anymore. > > I’m sure there’s a Wikipedia link to prove that nobody cares about my grandstanding. 😃 Did you not notice I linked to the respected study my detractors are trumpeting now? Don’t give me some shit about research, I was the first to present that study in this thread. Wiki was a supplementary cite to emphasize that studies involving a handful of people do not rise to the level of conclusive proof, and to state otherwise is dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/5yo-trans-girl-i-want-the-fairy-princess-to-come-and-make-my-penis-into-a-vagina/360263/58 "2006-06-12T21:23:05Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Perhaps. But it also shows that things considered definitive are often flawed, and that a blanket dismissal of a cite like Wikipedia base don a supposed lack of accuracy relative to other cites (ie. enclopedias) is unfair. No, I don’t think it shows any such thing. Wikipedia, like any encyclopedia, is mostly useful as a place to start research from. It’s by no means a definitive source, nor is it meant to be. It is, at best, a general overview of the subject. It should not be used to rebut a primary citation. That goes for encyclopedias as a whole, not just Wiki. In addition, the nature of Wikipedia itself makes it extremely unreliable when it comes to topics that are at all controversial, and transgenderism is one of the more controversial topics out there. The reliability of a wiki entry on that subject is dependent on what particular axe was being ground in the latest edit. On this particular subject, I would not rely on Wikipedia to be accurate, and I would not blame anyone for rejecting such a cite out of hand. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/5yo-trans-girl-i-want-the-fairy-princess-to-come-and-make-my-penis-into-a-vagina/360263/59 "2006-06-12T21:25:48Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > If you think the kid’s brain is irrevocably female, I reserve the right to believe that some persons are irrevocably wired to be cannibals. Well, at least **DocCathode** has some actual evidence to back up his theory, even if its not conclusive. What have you got on the cannibal front? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/5yo-trans-girl-i-want-the-fairy-princess-to-come-and-make-my-penis-into-a-vagina/360263/60 "2006-06-12T21:28:23Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m sure there’s a Wikipedia link to prove that nobody cares about my grandstanding. 😃 [Yep.](http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Marley) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/5yo-trans-girl-i-want-the-fairy-princess-to-come-and-make-my-penis-into-a-vagina/360263.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/5yo-trans-girl-i-want-the-fairy-princess-to-come-and-make-my-penis-into-a-vagina/360263.md?page=4)