# 6 billion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 1999, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-billion/17312 "1999-10-13T00:02:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2000, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-billion/17312/441 "2000-01-09T15:32:00Z")
Akats > [@](#): > > The pains and suffering of overpopulation sound more and more like a small thing when contrasted with the Draconian measures being proposed to control the reproduction and movement of people. There is nothing draconian in our asking for respect for this nation’s sovereignty and borders. As to the unspecified measures to curb overpopualtion, how about awareness that we have a world population problem and educating people how to help eliviate that? * * * Things are not what they seem to be; nor are they otherwise. [lankavatara Sutra] ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2000, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-billion/17312/442 "2000-01-09T17:29:00Z")
How about awareness that we DON’T have a world population problem, and educating people how to distinguish between good statistical inferences and alarmist mythology? ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2000, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-billion/17312/443 "2000-01-09T19:58:00Z")
tracer > [@](#): > > How about awareness that we DON’T have a world population problem, and educating people how to distinguish between good statistical inferences and alarmist mythology? That’s not awareness, tracer. That is myopia. AWARENESS implies vigilance in observing, or alertness in drawing inferences from what one experiences orb has learned. It implies having special or certain knowledge, as from firsthand sources. It also implies that one is focusing one’s attention on something, or is even aware of it. I have seen none of that from any of you in this thread. You say you have a desire to educate people, but I do not see any movemnet in that direction. What you are doing by ignoring the problem is keeping people ignorant. Dont’t worry, folks, relax, this ship will never sink. Titanic theme plays in background. * * * Things are not what they seem to be; nor are they otherwise. [lankavatara Sutra] ---
**Author:** ![Akatsukami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea666f/32.png) [@Akatsukami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akatsukami)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2000, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-billion/17312/444 "2000-01-10T13:10:00Z")
[Researchers create first global long-term precipitation data set for understanding El Niño/La niña](http://www.eurekalert.org/releases/godd-rcf010600.html) We note the admission that GCMs are not perfect. * * * “Kings die, and leave their crowns to their sons. Shmuel HaKatan took all the treasures in the world, and went away.” ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2000, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-billion/17312/445 "2000-01-11T00:56:00Z")
John John wrote: > [@](#): > > AWARENESS implies vigilance in observing, or alertness in drawing inferences from what one experiences orb has learned. It implies having special or certain knowledge, as from firsthand sources. It also implies that one is focusing one’s attention on something, or is even aware of it. I have seen none of that from any of you in this thread. Pot. Kettle. Jerk. ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2000, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-billion/17312/446 "2000-01-11T01:04:00Z")
tracer > [@](#): > > Pot. Kettle. Jerk. Astounding retort. What flare. What panache. What a crock! ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2000, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-billion/17312/447 "2000-01-11T01:09:00Z")
Akats, your point is we will not experience water shortages? ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2000, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-billion/17312/448 "2000-01-13T01:29:00Z")
Akats, you were saying something about water? ---
**Author:** ![Akatsukami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea666f/32.png) [@Akatsukami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akatsukami)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2000, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-billion/17312/449 "2000-01-13T02:07:00Z")
Why, of course, I’ve been saying very nearly since my first contribution to this thread that we will not have problems with water shortages _if we get off of our flipping butts and build some water projects instead of whining that they are unnatural_. However, the point of linking to that particular article was that, in spite of the brain-dead repetition by watermelons and vacuous media anchorcritters that “anthropogenic global warming is absolutely certain”, > [@](#): > > These observations [of El Niños/La Niñas] are not accurately reproduced in computer models, thus indicating a need for significant model improvement. * * * Eh, what’s that? God’s calling me home? Oh, OK; must be dinner time. ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2000, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-billion/17312/450 "2000-01-13T03:19:00Z")
Akats, it has been pointed out that the cost of desalination, cleaning sewer water, pumping water to arid regions etc for billions more people would be prohibitively expensive. ---
**Author:** ![Akatsukami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea666f/32.png) [@Akatsukami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akatsukami)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2000, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-billion/17312/451 "2000-01-13T13:59:00Z")
Prohibitively expensive for _whom_, **John John**? I did a BOTEC a while back, and posted the results in this thread, indicating that if _every drop of water_ used by humanity were desalinated ocean water purified to potable standards, that the cost would be within the budget of the world _as it exists today_. No new technologies, no sudden multiplying of our wealth. There are certainly anarchocapitalists who would refuse to pay a dime if part of the use of that dime could be construed as being used to pay someone else’s bill. Watermelons such the leadership, and many of the rank and file, of organizations like the Sierra Club, the National Resources Defense Council, Greenpeace, etc., _love_ to point to such opposition as evidence that water projects are “too expensive”. Of course, when it comes to those same anarchocapitalists pointing out the flaws in their fake “studies” of global warming, they simply refuse to listen. Extrapolation of the Owens Valley project to current times suggests that supplying fresh water for arid regions would cost about 0.1 year of world GDP. The “refutation” of this consists of press releases put out by yuppies in Vail condos. Read [America’s Water Supply: Status and Prospects for the Future](http://www.gcrio.org/CONSEQUENCES/spring95/Water.html) for some of the _real_ story. * * * Eh, what’s that? God’s calling me home? Oh, OK; must be dinner time. ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2000, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-billion/17312/452 "2000-01-14T12:50:00Z")
akats > [@](#): > > Prohibitively expensive for whom, Poor people, of course. ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2000, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-billion/17312/453 "2000-01-17T02:38:00Z")
The gasoline addative that makes it more invironmentally safe has been found to pollute ground water and has caused cancer in many people. New technologies have big downsides. Water keeps getting polluted and will become more scarce with overpopulation. Did any of you see that on 60 minutes? * * * Things are not what they seem to be; nor are they otherwise. [lankavatara Sutra] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2000, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-billion/17312/454 "2000-01-17T02:49:00Z")
Is this the same NBC **60 Minutes** that ran a show about ten years ago claiming that mercury in dental amalgam was causing people to sicken, and perhaps die? The same group that then claimed that people proved it by recovering their health the morning after having such fillings removed (when anyone with 3 hours of High School biology should know that metal poisoning takes months to flush out of the human body)? **60 Minutes** has been primarily an entertainment show (with a sensationalist tendency toward hysteria) for over 20 years. * * * Tom~ ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2000, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-billion/17312/455 "2000-01-17T05:54:00Z")
Why, Tom! Are you implying that _60 Minutes_ might not be totally objective in its reporting?! I’m shocked! :o ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2000, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-billion/17312/456 "2000-01-17T12:21:00Z")
Tom, you forgot alar in apples. This stuff is a proven polluter. Did anyone else see the show? I think it’s called MBPE, or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Akatsukami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea666f/32.png) [@Akatsukami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akatsukami)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2000, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-billion/17312/457 "2000-01-17T13:48:00Z")
[Alar](http://www.junkscience.com/news3/alar.htm)? You mean the chemical that was unfairly attacked by a coalition of an EPA hungry for reputation, a _60 Minutes_ hungry for ratings, and watermelons hungry for dollars? You should not only ashamed of yourself for being taken in, **John John** , you should be doubly ashamed of yourself for still hanging on to that canard when your managers have given it up. As for [MTBE](http://www.junkscience.com/feb99/mtbeoped.htm), this looks very much like a repeat of the Alar scam. Oxygenated gasoline seems to have very little effect in reducing air pollution; certainly, but little effect compared to such things as identifying and removing hydrocarbon-belching junkers from the roads. But MTBE appears to be basically harmless. Rather, it seems to be the subject of a witch hunt conducted by agencies who dropped the ball on related subjects, and are now frantically trying to cover up their incompetence by diverting public attention away from how they wasted tax dollars and towards MTBE. * * * “Kings die, and leave their crowns to their sons. Shmuel HaKatan took all the treasures in the world, and went away.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2000, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-billion/17312/458 "2000-01-17T20:51:00Z")
Akats, you missed my point in naming alar. I was reinforcing what Tom pointed out and agreeing with him. Scams are scams and they should be indentified. I do not share your lack of concern over MTBE. Information is coming out now and a lot of eveidence says that it has polluted groundwater in certian areas. * * * Things are not what they seem to be; nor are they otherwise. [lankavatara Sutra] ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2000, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-billion/17312/459 "2000-01-17T21:04:00Z")
"First, it is MTBE. I am very familiar with CARB and the MTBE issue, so let me fill you in, and clarify a few issues…(Don’t confuse my personal views with that of my employer, its just a job!) The State of California and/or CARB does NOT, repeat, DOES NOT require the use of MTBE OR ANY OTHER OXYGENATE. Refiners are free to use whatever they want (there are SEVERAL additives they can use) as long as they meet emission standards (tailpipe, evap, etc.). HOWEVER, the FEDERAL governement REQUIRES the use of an “oxygenate” in our (CA) fuels to lower emissions. They do NOT require the use of MTBE nor does ANY governement body in the nation. **The problem with MTBE, as many of you know, is that it is EXTREMELY difficult to remove from groundwater, soil, etc. This was not known before its introduction.** BTW, MTBE has been in California fuels for nearly 20 YEARS! It is not a new additive…Most of the flame war was brought on by the press when CA used MTBE “year-round” instead of just in it’s “winter fuels”. **Why do we now know MTBE is “bad” and hard to clean up, and that some watersheds and wells have it? Because CARB asked the State Water Resources Control Board to test for it-- to see if “GAS” and MTBE were making their way into our watershed. Yes, it is**…However, no “safe, or unsafe, limit” has been determined as of yet. Most of this contamination from MTBE (note that the other 50 or so CARCINOGENS in gas are also there) is from 2-stroke motors (boats and personal watercraft) that emit about 25-30% of the fuel out of the exhaust UNBURNT (the nature of a 2-stroke). Thus, lots of gas are going into our waters and you are starting to see several counties and Park and Rec. districts outlaw 2-strokes on their waters. Another problem is leaking underground storage tanks. Although this is not my area of expertise, I belive all UST’s are to be replaced with double walled tanks with leak detection by the end of the year (that’s why many of you Californian’s are seeing closed gas stations with big holes in the ground). " ## by Tim Gergen Things are not what they seem to be; nor are they otherwise. [lankavatara Sutra] ---
**Author:** ![edward](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/90db22/32.png) [@edward](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edward)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2000, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-billion/17312/460 "2000-01-17T21:10:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Akatsukami: > \*\*Why, of course, I’ve been saying very nearly since my first contribution to this thread that we will not have problems with water shortages _if we get off of our flipping butts and build some water projects instead of whining that they are unnatural_. > However, the point of linking to that particular article was that, in spite of the brain-dead repetition by watermelons and vacuous media anchorcritters that “anthropogenic global warming is absolutely certain”, \*\* I see. Computer models for precipitation are not accurate. Therefore computer models for global warming are not accurate. You miss the key point that the precipitation model is examining precipitation, whereas global warming models examine temperature. Related problems, in that they both concern the atmosphere. But the inability of the precipitation model to replicate the historical record does not invalidate the ability of current computer models to replicate the historical records for global temperature. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-billion/17312.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-billion/17312.md?page=24)