6 billion?

There is a definite connection between global warming and world population size.

Heated Debate in Kyoto: Population overlooked as a cause of Global Warming
Heated Debate in Kyoto:

Population Growth Overlooked as a Cause of Rises in Greenhouse Gases

by Joy Fishel, ZPG Research Assistant

Daybreak: December 11, 1997, Kyoto, Japan–the day after the talks on a global warming treaty were supposed to end. The heat has been turned off, and the translators’ contracts have expired. After nearly 72 straight hours of negotiations, exhausted delegates nap in chairs and on the floor of the Kyoto International Conference Center as negotiators hammer out the final details of what is now known as the “Kyoto Protocol.”

A historic milestone passed as 159 nations signed on to the first-ever international agreement setting legally binding limits to greenhouse gas emissions. According to Jonathan Lash, president of the World Resources Institute, “If countries who sign the treaty put in place the requisite policies and actions, the world will be set on a new course, one which is less dependent on fossil fuels, less polluting and less a threat to human health.” The Kyoto Protocol, however, is only a conservative beginning to this new course.

The treaty requires that industrialized nations reduce their greenhouse gas emissions by an average of 5.2 percent below 1990 levels by 2012. But it would take at least a 60 percent reduction to stabilize at current levels the concentration of gases that have been collecting in the atmosphere since the mid-1800’s.(1) Alden Meyer, Director of Government Relations for the Union of Concerned Scientists and a ZPG board member, calls the Kyoto Protocol a “minimal first step.” “Now,” he adds, “the challenge is to move quickly to implement the reductions, and to begin discussing deeper cuts for the next phase after 2012.” [Treaty Box]

Points of Contention

Gridlock between the United States and the European Union characterized most of the conference until Vice President Gore arrived to give a speech in which he announced that he had advised the U.S. delegation “to show increased negotiating flexibility.” The United States came to the climate conference with a proposal to set emissions reduction targets at 1990 levels and no lower, while the European Union wanted to reduce emissions to 15 percent below 1990 levels. Under a compromise agreement, the treaty calls for the E.U. to reduce emissions to 8 percent below 1990 levels, the U.S. to reduce them to 7 percent and Japan to reduce them to 6 percent below 1990 levels between 2008 and 2012.

While the industrialized nations comprise only 20 percent of the world’s population, to date they have released into the atmosphere 90 percent of all global carbon emissions from human sources. Each year, developed countries continue to release two-thirds of all global emissions. Furthermore, in a world where economies are driven by fossil fuel consumption, the developing countries, with 80 percent of the world’s population, make up only $5 trillion of the $23 trillion global GDP.

Even if, hypothetically, the less-developed nations produced no greenhouse gas emissions, the amounts of gases emitted by the industrialized world alone would still pose a significant threat to the Earth’s future climate. Because of these circumstances, the industrialized nations agreed to make the first commitments to greenhouse gas cuts in the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change signed at the Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil in 1992.

During the December talks developing countries repeatedly refused to make any commitment to set even voluntary emissions reductions targets before the industrialized nations started their reductions program. Nor, according to Kyoto conference guidelines established at the 1995 Second Conference of Parties, were they required to.

Industrialized countries have an obligation to make the first steps. However, developing countries share an obligation to follow suit, even though they worry that emission caps will jeopardize their burgeoning economies. Due to the rapidly increasing size of the populations and economies of countries like China, India and Mexico, greenhouse gas emissions from developing countries will soon pose a significant threat to global climate.

Developing countries also objected to the proposal for “emissions trading,” saying it would allow rich countries to buy their way out of making real reductions in greenhouse gas emissions. Under a system of emissions trading, countries that more than meet their reduction targets could sell their emission “credits” to countries that fail to meet their targets. The United States claims that this system will encourage reductions of global emissions where they are most cost-effective.

According to the present agreement, trading can only occur between industrialized countries since they are the only ones subject to emissions targets. Developing countries can participate in another program included in the treaty called the “clean development mechanism” which allows industrialized countries to receive credits towards their emissions targets by investing in upgrades to more energy-efficient technologies in other countries.

Population Growth a Factor for U.S.

Population growth adds to the amount of greenhouse gases emitted into the atmosphere in many ways. More people in the world, especially in countries which have a high standard of living (such as the U.S.), means more cars on the road and more electricity, heat and air conditioning in homes and businesses. It also means increased deforestation and increased agricultural and industrial production. Each of these activities requires the burning of fossil fuels and/or increases the emissions of gases like carbon dioxide, methane, and hydroflourocarbons (HFCs). Most scientists now agree that the increased concentration of these gases in the atmosphere has a significant and potentially dangerous impact on the Earth’s climate.

In the United States, carbon emissions are expected to be about 13 percent higher in 2000 than they were in 1990.(2) According to United Nations’ projections, the U.S. population will increase by 9.3 percent over this same period. As Frederick Meyer of the Yale School of Forestry noted, population growth alone accounts for more than two-thirds of the increase in carbon emissions this decade. In other words, if the United States wanted its 2000 emissions to be no higher than they were in 1990, it would have to reduce carbon emissions per capita by almost ten percent just to make up for the increase in population.(3)

With respect to the Kyoto Protocol, the United States’ high rate of population growth relative to other industrialized countries will make reaching its emissions targets more difficult. Under the treaty, between 2008 and 2012, the United States is required to reduce is emissions to 7 percent below those of 1990. According to the expected increase in population by 2010, the United States would have to decrease its emissions per capita by 22 percent below 1990 per capita emission levels (which, by the way, are themselves substantially lower than present per capita emission levels) in order to comply with the treaty.

In contrast, Japan, which is slated for a 6 percent reduction below 1990 emissions, will have to make only a nine percent reduction in per capita emissions from 1990 levels due to its slower rate of population growth.

Despite the obvious impact of population growth rate on emission levels, population was not discussed directly in the Kyoto negotiations. The next round of climate talks, scheduled for November 1998 in Buenos Aires, Argentina, is expected to include further debates on the emissions reduction commitments of less developed countries. Since the populations of less developed countries are increasing at a much faster rate than those of the industrialized countries, population issues should play an even more central role in the dialogue. But will population issues

ZPG fact sheet

You can quickly see that in dhanson’s new world order all the underdeveloped nations would have a greater impact on the envirnoment by emitting more green house gases into the atmosphere, as they became more industrialized.


“All rising to a great place is by a winding stair.” F.Bacon

Brille

Ms.Joy Fichel ZPG

Doesn’t it stand to reason that THIS is a definite scenario for the future if we increase world population by predicted amounts?

I really don’t know why some of you obviously intelligent people do not understand this.

“All rising to a great place is by a winding stair.” F.Bacon

Brille

Because some of us obviously intelligent people don’t accept the rantings of eco-alarmists on blind faith, as Ms. Fichel seems to.

tracer

What portion of her astute comments do you disagree with? How about eco-protectors, or realists?


“All rising to a great place is by a winding stair.” F.Bacon

Brille

I’m very surprised that this discussion has been totally male. Too much testosterone! I would think that women, being nurturing and less destructive by nature, would weigh in with some comments.

Ladies, you are the ones that will have the babies and are 50% of the equation. What do you say?


“All rising to a great place is by a winding stair.” F.Bacon

Brille

John John wrote:

What portion of Fichel’s comments do I disagree with? Oh, stuff like this:

Most scientists do not agree that the current or anticipated near-future concentration of greenhouse gases in Earth’s atmosphere has a significant impact on its climate. Akatsukami has already pointed out a petition by 19,200 scientists who say that man-made global warming is not a serious threat (this far outnumbers the 2500 petitioners at the IPCC). However, many eco-alarmists like to say that most scientists agree the Earth is going to hell in a handbasket because of artificial greenhouse gas emissions (or, for that matter, because of artificial ozone depletion, or air pollution, or water pollution, or landfills, or overpopulation).

John -

I am a woman, and I’ve already MADE my comments, which you have chosen to ignore. I am VIOLENTLY opposed to ANY form of radical population control, such as China’s policy. Instead of trying policies like that, industrialized nations around the world should be educating the Third World nations, so that they can prosper and not need as many births. As many posters here have stated, we can only change events 50 years or so out. You seem to be advocating radical change now. I asked you before, and I will ask again. How would you reduce the population before 2050?

BTW, one question…with more technology, isn’t it more likely we will have technologies to CLEAN the environment? Just a thought. Also, the main problem with worldwide pollution is in developing countries. This is due to the fact they do not have the sophisticated technologies we do for controlling emissions. This has little or nothing to do with the size of their population. Solution? Once again, trading knowlege. (And I’m sorry, I don’t have a cite right now…I’ll look it up when I get home.)

Finally, one quick comment on the desalinization of water debate. Yo John, ever heard of the Anacostia River in DC? DAMN polluted. And they treat it and use it for drinking water. And it tastes fine. Does it taste like Evian? Honestly, I can’t tell a difference.

Just my $.02.


“Men are from Earth, women are from Earth. Deal with it.” - George Carlin

Akatsukami-

I’m sorry, I was referring to “global warming caused by humans” in reference to your “global warming.” My mistake. And I don’t want to particularly get in a debate over the scientific method in this thread, so let’s leave it at that. However, please provide me with the numbers from which you can claim that the errors are greater than the proclaimed increase. Again, I’d like to ask for primary sources from peer-reviewed journals.

As to the rest:

I’m glad we can agree that popularity does not determine science. You missed the larger point of examining the sources of the information. The IPCC does no research of its own. It is sponsored by the UN and the World Metereological Organization. It is comprised by leaders in the field. And its reports (collated from the primary literature) are peer-reviewed. If you choose to disregard its findings, feel free to do so. But at least acknowledge that the people behind it are the leading researchers in the field.

tracer said:

You might have missed my previous post regarding the petition. Here it is:

Reading primary literature on the topic, it is clear that the majority of scientists doing credible research in the field agree that the current or anticipated near-future concentration of greenhouse gases probably will have a significant impact on its climate.

Akatsukami-

I’m sorry, I was referring to “global warming caused by humans” in reference to your “global warming.” My mistake. And I don’t want to particularly get in a debate over the scientific method in this thread, so let’s leave it at that. However, please provide me with the numbers from which you can claim that the errors are greater than the proclaimed increase. Again, I’d like to ask for primary sources from peer-reviewed journals.

As to the rest:

I’m glad we can agree that popularity does not determine science. You missed the larger point of examining the sources of the information. The IPCC does no research of its own. It is sponsored by the UN and the World Metereological Organization. It is comprised by leaders in the field. And its reports (collated from the primary literature) are peer-reviewed. If you choose to disregard its findings, feel free to do so. But at least acknowledge that the people behind it are the leading researchers in the field.

tracer said:

You might have missed my previous post regarding the petition. Here it is:

[QUOTE]
Looking at the Petition Project: first, it is signed by 19,200 total, not19,200 scientists. 16,800 have science degrees, two thirds of these considered advanced degrees. “2,388 physicists, geophysicists, climatologists, meteorologists, oceanographers, and environmental scientists” signed, as well as “4,963 scientists whose fields of specialization in chemistry, biochemistry, biology, and other life sciences.” 17,300 of the signatories have been independently verified, 1,900 have not. A paper is posted on the site giving a detailed argument as to why rising carbon dioxide levels have “produced no deleterious effects upon global weather, climate, or temperature.” In fact, it is claimed that “Increased carbon dioxide has, however, markedly increased plant growth rates.” A science citation search revealed that this article hasn’t been published. The professional background of the signatories is not given (except for a supporting letter from Frederick Seitz, former president of of the NAS and Rockefeller). 16,800 scientists is a lot, but it would be helpful if more information was given, and a bit more science behind their claims. The sponsoring body, the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine, seems a bit out of the mainstream, based on their webpage.

[QUOTE]

Reading primary literature on the topic, it is clear that the majority of scientists doing credible research in the field agree that the current or anticipated near-future concentration of greenhouse gases probably will have a significant impact on its climate.

tracer

That is simply not an accurate statement, Tracer and is not supported by any credible data. The IPCC & WMO, which were sponsored by the UN, have shown data that supports the fact that greenhouse gases WILL effect the Earth’s climate.


Truth is something you stumble into when you think you’re going someplace else.
[Jerry Garcia]

Falcon

I didn’t ignore them, I just thought they were wrong.

How would I reduce population now? EDUCATION. I would fund the UN’s efforts to make birth control available for nations that do not have access to it. I would MAKE available all the information on our impending world population crisis. I would offer tax credits for smaller families and reduce, or curtail, tax incentives for larger families.


Truth is something you stumble into when you think you’re going someplace else.
[Jerry Garcia]

A question for you Falcon, why do you think China resorted to such draconian methods to reduce their population? What disaster were they trying to avert?


Truth is something you stumble into when you think you’re going someplace else.
[Jerry Garcia]

Edward

Indeed!

"Has climate change already begun? [YES!]-me]
The earth’s climate is already adjusting to past greenhouse gas emissions. The climate system must adjust to changing greenhouse gas concentrations in order to keep the global energy budget balanced. This means that the climate is changing and will continue to change as long as greenhouse gas levels keep rising. But this is not very useful. The real question is how large the change is likely to be relative to the natural climate fluctuations that human societies and natural ecosystems have learned to adapt to.

Measurement records indicate a warming of 0.3o-0.6oC in global average temperature since 1860. This is in line with model projections of the size of warming to date, particularly when the cooling effect of sulphur emissions is included. But observations are sparse before 1900 and much of the warming occurred between 1910 and 1940, before the largest rise in greenhouse gases. There is clearly more going on than a simple, direct response to emissions. This is to be expected as the climate is a complicated and chaotic system.

Climate models predict that the global average temperature will rise by about 2oC (3.6oF) by the year 2100 if current emission trends continue. This projection uses 1990 as a baseline. It also takes into account climate feedbacks and the effects of sulphate aerosols as they are presently understood. Because there are still many uncertainties, current estimates of how much it will warm during the 21st century range from 1 to 3.5oC.

Past emissions have already committed us to some climate change. The climate does not respond immediately to emissions. It will therefore continue to change for many years even if greenhouse gas emissions are reduced and atmospheric levels stop rising. Some important impacts of climate change, such as a predicted rise in sea level, will take even longer to be fully realized.
There is evidence that climate change has already begun. The climate varies naturally, making it difficult to identify the effects of rising greenhouse gases. But the pattern of temperature trends over the past few decades does resemble the pattern of greenhouse warming predicted by models. These trends are unlikely to be due entirely to known sources of natural variability. While many uncertainties remain, scientists believe that "the balance of the evidence suggests a discernible human influence on global climate."

From UNDP-GEF


Truth is something you stumble into when you think you’re going someplace else.
[Jerry Garcia]

John -

They saw their population as increasing too quickly and took drastic measures to counteract it. I believe they were wrong - IIRC, their birth rate had dropped to replacement level when the policy was instituted.

Now, answer my question. Do you agree with their methods?


“Men are from Earth, women are from Earth. Deal with it.” - George Carlin

John John wrote:

Uh huh. And I suppose none of the data behind the articles at http://www.globalwarming.org/science/ is credible at all?


Quick-N-Dirty Aviation: Trading altitude for airspeed since 1992.

Falcon

That is not an answer, Falcon. Why did they think it was bad for their population to increase? Evidence contradicts your assertion that they had dropped to replacement levels.

What is the OFFICAL birth policy in China? Please do not report “stories” but their actual policy?

I would like to see the World reduce births voluntarily so draconian methods are never needed.


Truth is something you stumble into when you think you’re going someplace else.
[Jerry Garcia]

tracer

from tracer’s cite[[Views expressed on this website and linked to this website are for consideration and are not necessarily the views of the Cooler Heads Coalition or the National Consumer Coalition.**[stooges of industry]**This site is designed and maintained by Rich Zipperer. ]]who is he?

You will remember I said CREDIBLE data? This hardly rises to that level. These cites are generated, and funded, by the polluters of global warming. This is akin to the cigarette industry putting out faux science to show that there is no link between cigarette smoking and cancer. Yeah, right!

OVERPOPULATION INCREASES GLOBAL WARMING.


Truth is something you stumble into when you think you’re going someplace else.
[Jerry Garcia]

Funny kind of objection, coming from someone who unquestioningly believes every statement put out by the Sierra Club and ZPG.

Sierra Club, yes, because they have no other agenda other than save the planet. The information issues come from various, unbiased organizations whose cheif aim is to educate people on the perils of our present practices. They make no money from it, as do the polluters who are in profit making industries.


Truth is something you stumble into when you think you’re going someplace else.
[Jerry Garcia]