6 billion?

Actually, I cross-verified many of the U.N. numbers with census numbers from a number of countries, and they all match. I think it’s currently the most accurate data available.

What was the point to your list of countries? To show that there are a lot of members in the U.N.? Thanks for that breaking announcement.

BTW, your OWN data didn’t contradict the U.N. data. The Sierra club simply selected the numbers that looked the worst and ignored the rest.

For example, facts like the birthrate in India and China dropping from 5-6 to under 3 is remarkable and startling. It should cause you to reconsider everything you thought about overpopulation. A birthrate near 3 in a country with above-average infant mortality translates into replacement or even below-replacement levels. A birthrate of 6 implies an exponentially growing population. So a transition in fertility from one to another implies massive changes in our policies regarding overpopulation.

Yet the Sierra Club and Zero Population Growth have not changed their dire pronouncements one bit, and if anything are even more strident.

I of course dis the Sierra Club’s and ZPG’s “figures”, since these do not represent any independent research or analysis, but rather the fund-raising proclivities of these organizations.

I note that your own attitude towards the data provided by U.N. FAO and Department of Economic and Social Affairs has changed from “Oh, they don’t say that” to “Of course they say that, but they’re wrong”, as incontrovertible proof of the nature of the data is provided.

In Future Expectations for Below-Replacement Fertility, we read what must be consider the final nail in the coffin of the population controllers’ claims:

(A lifetime crude birth rate of 2.1 children/woman is generally considered to be replacement level fertility, although this varies from population to population depending on mortality).


“Kings die, and leave their crowns to their sons. Shmuel HaKatan took all the treasures in the world, and went away.”

Hanson

Whosssssssssssssssssssssh

Brille


“All rising to a great place is by a winding stair.” F.Bacon

Brille

Akats

I dis the UN as a Left Wing, Third World stooge organization.


“All rising to a great place is by a winding stair.” F.Bacon

Brille

John John, you listed Antarctica as a country with membership in the U. N. Antarctica is a continent, and no nation has sole claim to it.

Just tryin’ to help.


Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to relive it. Georges Santayana

United Nations Member States

With the admission of Kiribati, Nauru and Tonga, there are now 188 Member States of the United Nations. The Member States and the dates on which they joined the Organization are listed below:

Member – (Date of Admission)
Afghanistan – (19 Nov. 1946)
Albania – (14 Dec. 1955)
Algeria – (8 Oct. 1962)
Andorra – (28 July 1993)
Angola – (1 Dec. 1976)
Antigua and Barbuda – (11 Nov. 1981)
Argentina – (24 Oct. 1945)
Armenia – (2 Mar. 1992)
Australia – (1 Nov. 1945)
Austria-- (14 Dec. 1955)
Azerbaijan – (9 Mar. 1992)
Bahamas – (18 Sep. 1973)
Bahrain – (21 Sep. 1971)
Bangladesh – (17 Sep. 1974)
Barbados – (9 Dec. 1966)
Belarus – (24 Oct. 1945)
–On 19 September 1991, Byelorussia informed the United Nations that it had changed its name to Belarus.

Belgium – (27 Dec. 1945)
Belize – (25 Sep. 1981)
Benin – (20 Sep. 1960)
Bhutan – (21 Sep. 1971)
Bolivia – (14 Nov. 1945)
Bosnia and Herzegovina – (22 May 1992)
Botswana – (17 Oct. 1966)
Brazil – (24 Oct. 1945)
Brunei Darussalam – (21 Sep. 1984)
Bulgaria – (14 Dec. 1955)
Burkina Faso – (20 Sep. 1960)
Burundi – (18 Sep. 1962)
Cambodia – (14 Dec. 1955)
Cameroon – (20 Sep. 1960)
Canada – (9 Nov. 1945)
Cape Verde – (16 Sep. 1975)
Central African Republic – (20 Sep. 1960)
Chad – (20 Sep. 1960)
Chile – (24 Oct. 1945)
China – (24 Oct. 1945)
Colombia – (5 Nov. 1945)
Comoros – (12 Nov. 1975)
Congo – (20 Sep. 1960)
Costa Rica – (2 Nov. 1945)
Côte d’Ivoire – (20 Sep. 1960)
Croatia – (22 May 1992)
Cuba – (24 Oct. 1945)
Cyprus – (20 Sep. 1960)
Czech Republic – (19 Jan. 1993)
–Czechoslovakia was an original Member of the United Nations from 24 October 1945. In a letter dated 10 December 1992, its Permanent Representative informed the Secretary-General that the Czech and Slovak Federal Republic would cease to exist on 31 December 1992 and that the Czech Republic and the Slovak Republic, as successor States, would apply for membership in the United Nations. Following the receipt of its application, the Security Council, on 8 January, recommended to the General Assembly that the Czech Republic be admitted to United Nations membership. The Czech Republic was thus admitted on 19 January as a Member State.

Democratic People’s Republic of Korea – (17 Sep. 1991)
Democratic Republic of the Congo – (20 Sep. 1960)
Denmark – (24 Oct. 1945)
Djibouti – (20 Sep. 1977)
Dominica – (18 Dec. 1978)
Dominican Republic – (24 Oct. 1945)
Ecuador – (21 Dec. 1945)
Egypt – (24 Oct. 1945)
–Egypt and Syria were original Members of the United Nations from 24 October 1945. Following a plebiscite on 21 February 1958, the United Arab Republic was established by a union of Egypt and Syria and continued as a single Member. On 13 October 1961, Syria, having resumed its status as an independent State, resumed its separate membership in the United Nations. On 2 September 1971, the United Arab Republic changed its name to the Arab Republic of Egypt.

El Salvador – (24 Oct. 1945)
Equatorial Guinea – (12 Nov. 1968)
Eritrea – (28 May 1993)
Estonia – (17 Sep. 1991)
Ethiopia – (13 Nov. 1945)
Fiji – (13 Oct. 1970)
Finland – (14 Dec. 1955)
France – (24 Oct. 1945)
Gabon – (20 Sep. 1960)
Gambia – (21 Sep. 1965)
Georgia – (31 July 1992)
Germany – (18 Sep. 1973)
– The Federal Republic of Germany and the German Democratic Republic were admitted to membership in the United Nations on 18 September 1973. Through the accession of the German Democratic Republic to the Federal Republic of Germany, effective from 3 October 1990, the two German States have united to form one sovereign State.

Ghana – (8 Mar. 1957)
Greece – (25 Oct. 1945)
Grenada – (17 Sep. 1974)
Guatemala – (21 Nov. 1945)
Guinea – (12 Dec. 1958)
Guinea-Bissau – (17 Sep. 1974)
Guyana – (20 Sep. 1966)
Haiti – (24 Oct. 1945)
Honduras – (17 Dec. 1945)
Hungary – (14 Dec. 1955)
Iceland – (19 Nov. 1946)
India – (30 Oct. 1945)
Indonesia – (28 Sep. 1950)
–By letter of 20 January 1965, Indonesia announced its decision to withdraw from the United Nations “at this stage and under the present circumstances”. By telegram of 19 September 1966, it announced its decision “to resume full cooperation with the United Nations and to resume participation in its activities”. On 28 September 1966, the General Assembly took note of this decision and the President invited representatives of Indonesia to take seats in the Assembly.

Iran (Islamic Republic of)-- (24 Oct. 1945)
Iraq – (21 Dec. 1945)
Ireland – (14 Dec. 1955)
Israel – (11 May 1949)
Italy – (14 Dec. 1955)
Jamaica – (18 Sep. 1962)
Japan – (18 Dec. 1956)
Jordan – (14 Dec. 1955)
Kazakhstan – (2 Mar. 1992)
Kenya – (16 Dec. 1963)
Kiribati – (14 Sept. 1999)
Kuwait – (14 May 1963)
Kyrgyzstan – (2 Mar. 1992)
Lao People’s Democratic Republic – (14 Dec. 1955)
Latvia – (17 Sep. 1991)
Lebanon – (24 Oct. 1945)
Lesotho – (17 Oct. 1966)
Liberia – (2 Nov. 1945)
Libyan Arab Jamahiriya – (14 Dec. 1955)
Liechtenstein – (18 Sep. 1990)
Lithuania – (17 Sep. 1991)
Luxembourg – (24 Oct. 1945)
Madagascar – (20 Sep. 1960)
Malawi – (1 Dec. 1964)
Malaysia – (17 Sep. 1957)
–The Federation of Malaya joined the United Nations on 17 September 1957. On 16 September 1963, its name was changed to Malaysia, following the admission to the new federation of Singapore, Sabah (North Borneo) and Sarawak. Singapore became an independent State on 9 August 1965 and a Member of the United Nations on 21 September 1965.

Maldives – (21 Sep. 1965)
Mali – (28 Sep. 1960)
Malta – (1 Dec. 1964)
Marshall Islands – (17 Sep. 1991)
Mauritania – (7 Oct. 1961)
Mauritius – (24 Apr. 1968)
Mexico – (7 Nov. 1945)
Micronesia (Federated States of)-- (17 Sep. 1991)
Monaco – (28 May 1993)
Mongolia – (27 Oct. 1961)
Morocco – (12 Nov. 1956)
Mozambique – (16 Sep. 1975)
Myanmar – (19 Apr. 1948)
Namibia – (23 Apr. 1990)
Nauru – (14 Sept. 1999)
Nepal – (14 Dec. 1955)
Netherlands – (10 Dec. 1945)
New Zealand – (24 Oct. 1945)
Nicaragua – (24 Oct. 1945)
Niger – (20 Sep. 1960)
Nigeria – (7 Oct. 1960)
Norway – (27 Nov. 1945)
Oman – (7 Oct. 1971)
Pakistan – (30 Sep. 1947)
Palau – (15 Dec. 1994)
Panama – (13 Nov. 1945)
Papua New Guinea – (10 Oct. 1975)
Paraguay – (24 Oct. 1945)
Peru – (31 Oct. 1945)
Philippines – (24 Oct. 1945)
Poland – (24 Oct. 1945)
Portugal – (14 Dec. 1955)
Qatar – (21 Sep. 1971)
Republic of Korea – (17 Sep. 1991)
Republic of Moldova – (2 Mar. 1992)
Romania – (14 Dec. 1955)
Russian Federation – (24 Oct. 1945)
–The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was an original Member of the United Nations from 24 October 1945. In a letter dated 24 December 1991, Boris Yeltsin, the President of the Russian Federation, informed the Secretary-General that the membership of the Soviet Union in the Security Council and all other United Nations organs was being continued by the Russian Federation with the support of the 11 member countries of the Commonwealth of Independent States.

Rwanda – (18 Sep. 1962)
Saint Kitts and Nevis – (23 Sep. 1983)
Saint Lucia – (18 Sep. 1979)
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines – (16 Sep. 1980)
Samoa – (15 Dec. 1976)
San Marino – (2 Mar. 1992)
Sao Tome and Principe – (16 Sep. 1975)
Saudi Arabia – (24 Oct. 1945)
Senegal – (28 Sep. 1960)
Seychelles – (21 Sep. 1976)
Sierra Leone – (27 Sep. 1961)
Singapore – (21 Sep. 1965)
Slovakia – (19 Jan. 1993)
–Czechoslovakia was an original Member of the United Nations from 24 October 1945. In a letter dated 10 December 1992, its Permanent Representative informed the Secretary-General that the Czech and Slovak Federal Republic would cease to exist on 31 December 1992

Take a look at the countries on the above list, Akats and dhanson - this will sail over their heads again for sure.


“All rising to a great place is by a winding stair.” F.Bacon

Brille

From the Population Council:

What’s next? Population explosion or decline?
Will recent declines in fertility rates lead to a “birth dearth”? Has the “population explosion” been defused?

These simple questions are not simply answered and should be put into a proper perspective, says Population Council demographer John Bongaarts. Current trends in reproductive behavior differ sharply between regions and should not be confused. “In the already crowded developing world, despite plummeting fertility rates, both the number of births and population size will keep growing,” he says. “The expected addition of several billion more people will hamper ongoing efforts to reduce poverty and achieve sustainable development.”

“On the other hand, in parts of the developed world, particularly Europe and Japan, already low fertility is causing consternation over the potential adverse effects of an aging or declining population. This concern should not be overblown, however, since reported fertility measures do not reflect the fact that couples are still having about two children—they’re just having them later in life. Fertility rates are not as low as they appear to be,” Bongaarts explains.

The world is only at mid-point in population growth

Bongaarts pointed out in a recent issue of Science that contraceptive use in the developing world, once rare, is now widespread: the average number of births per woman has fallen by half—from the traditional six or more to near three today. This “revolution in reproductive behavior,” says Bongaarts, has led some to speculate that “the world population explosion is over.” But instead of being near the end of the “explosion” with today’s population of 5.9 billion, Bongaarts comments, “we are just past its mid-point. After a record-breaking increase of 2 billion people over the past 25 years, the same increase is projected over the next 25 years.”

Large increases in population growth are expected in Africa, Asia, and Latin America** yeah, but Akats and dhanosn say otherwise - who to believe?** for three reasons, Bongaarts says: Fertility is still about 50 percent above the two-child level needed to bring about population stabilization. With more than two surviving children per woman, every generation is larger than the preceding one.

Declines in mortality—historically the main cause of population growth—will almost certainly continue. Higher standards of living, better nutrition, and expanded health services have increased life expectancy by 50 percent since 1950. The unhappy exceptions will be life expectancy declines in sub-Saharan African countries with severe AIDS epidemics.

The historically largest generation of women about to enter the childbearing years will produce more than enough births to maintain population growth for decades even if they each have only two children—the result of population momentum.

Not a birth dearth, either

Europe, North America, and Japan face quite a different demographic future, Bongaarts says, along with such rapidly developing Southeast Asian countries as Hong Kong, Korea, and Singapore, which also have experienced steep declines in population growth rates since 1960. But because of immigration, rising life expectancy, and population momentum, the populations in even these countries are projected to remain close to current levels for several decades, with modest increases expected in some (e.g. the U.S.) and small declines elsewhere (e.g. in Europe).

Bongaarts feels that concern about underpopulation in developed countries has been exaggerated. Although observed fertility has reached historic lows in many developed countries and the percentage of women remaining childless is relatively high, it is likely that birth rates will not drop further and may even turn up. To support this conclusion, Bongaarts points to a puzzling discrepancy between expressed preferences for family size and measured fertility in most low-fertility societies.

In most low-fertility societies, the preferred family size is about two children and the actual childbearing experiences of women support this number, but this is not reflected in the most widely reported measure of annual fertility (the so-called total fertility rate). “The measurement of this fertility rate picks up a slightly different picture than we get looking at women’s actual reproductive histories,” Bongaarts says. If women in a given country have the same number of children in their lifetime, but later in their lives than their predecessors, this will appear to be a reduction when we look at annual birth statistics. Family size may in fact not be changing in nearly as dramatic a fashion as is suggested by the year-by-year aggregate birth statistics.

“These distortions,” comments Bongaarts, “are temporary because they exist only while the age at childbearing is rising. Once women stop deferring births, the distortion disappears and the very low fertility rates observed in the developed world should rise closer to the two children most couples want.”

page modifed Nov 1, 1999


“All rising to a great place is by a winding stair.” F.Bacon

Brille

Sigh.

We never said this. Apparently, you are incapable of reading, or of understanding what you read.

Both of us, using the U.N.'s numbers, said that fertility rates in these areas had dropped from 5-6 to close to 3. A fertility rate of 3 children per couple indicates a population growth. Just not as big as was previously forecast.

This is growing tiresome.

dhanson

Where did you say that? I believe it was Akatsumkami that said India and sub Saharan Africa’s population was DECLINING. The information that I posted said that the mortality rate had decreased and therefore 2.5 to 3 births would add substantially to world population.

]quote]This is growing tiresome
[/quote]

You mean the World’s population problem? Oh, sorry, you don’t think we have one.

“All rising to a great place is by a winding stair.” F.Bacon

Brille

dhanson, I believe that John John’s continued harping on the nations that make up the U.N. is to reinforce his stated belief that the data collected by that organization from the various member states are unreliable, and have been since they began to vary from the horrifying statistics that empowered his preferred organizations in the '60s and '70s.

I agree with you that opposing the paranoid fantasies of the population controllers can and does grow tiresome. OTOH, whilst we have seen that few new participants enter this thread, there are some, and to fail to oppose this drivel might lead the new readers to suppose that they “population bomb” scenario has some validity to it.

One might suppose that the Population Council had some recognition, from JJ’s frantic invocation of it now that the Sierra Club and ZPG have been debunked as a source of reliable information. Actually, it’s a NGO created in 1952 by John D. Rockerfeller III.

Incidentally, John Bongaarts (note correct spelling of given name) apparently believes in “birth displacement” as the cause for fertility decline. The fact that the data from North America and Europe shows that, at a very minimum, births must be displaced from women in their 20s to women in their 40s (and are thus unlikely to occur at all) makes this belief highly untenable.


“Kings die, and leave their crowns to their sons. Shmuel HaKatan took all the treasures in the world, and went away.”

Akatsukami

For a brief moment I thought some sense had filtered through the miasma of misinformation by you in this thread, but, no, Akats & Co still grope in the dark while the ship sinks.

]quote]One might suppose that the Population Council had some recognition, from JJ’s frantic invocation of it now that the Sierra Club and ZPG have been debunked as a source of reliable information. Actually, it’s a NGO created in 1952 by John D. Rockerfeller III.
[/quote]

No, one might suppose that the Population Council knows a bit more than you do about this subject, which, apparently, they do. You say there is no problem. That contradicts the prevailing wisdom and accurate information on the subject. Not hard to believe you live in LA. I think you need to travel.


“All rising to a great place is by a winding stair.” F.Bacon

Brille

I just noticed this post from Tom, not quite a week ago. I beg to differ. I think the world will be a far better place for our grandchildren if John John commits suicide.

Rich

John John, you’ve done it this time. According to their profiles, dhanson is from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, and Akatsukami is from Glastonbury, Connecticut. I’m* from L. A., and I was on your side.

Not anymore.

I’m not exactly on the other guys’ side, either, because I’m skeptical how accurately anyone can predict how big the population will be in ten years, let alone fifty. Could any of you pull up a past prediction of how much the population was supposed to increase so we can check its accuracy? Did anyone accurately predict we’d reach 6 billion by 1999?

And if the population does peak and then declines, I have to wonder what kind of a world the post-peak population will inherit. A world where former wilderness and farmland is now full of unoccupied homes and businesses? A world with fewer wild animals because of those abandoned structures? “Well, we’ll just tear the buildings down and the land’ll become wilderness and/or farmland again.”

How much would that cost? And I guess you’ll bring back the lifeforms we made extinct through cloning? Sure.

John John, you’re on your own from now on.


Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to relive it. Georges Santayana

Ah, I messed up my italics and boldface. I really shouldn’t be in such a hurry to post.

Proofread, proofread, proofread…


Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to relive it. Georges Santayana

Vegforlife

Flash: I won’t be here when you have grandchildren.

“All rising to a great place is by a winding stair.” F.Bacon

Brille

Is that a promise?


Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to relive it. Georges Santayana

posted 11-08-1999 06:24 PM

jab1

Ah, gee, I’m gonna miss all those expert, supportive posts by you. It didn’t take much for you flee camp. :wink:

“All rising to a great place is by a winding stair.” F.Bacon

Brille

jab1

So, why should you be any different? :wink:


“All rising to a great place is by a winding stair.” F.Bacon

Brille

Jab1: Population predictions have been notoriously unreliable in the past. The U.N.'s numbers have been probably the closest. I believe the 1994 medium-variant population projection had the Earth’s population at 6.5 billion by 2000. So they were wrong, on the high side, but not by that much. But it’s important to note that the U.N. isn’t saying, “This is what the population will be” - they built three different models, with the middle variant being the ‘most likely’. They acknowledge the possibility that the population could be as high as 13-14 billion by 2100, or as low as 3.6 billion. To state anything else with certainty is being dishonest.

As time goes on, the U.N. has released updates to the projections which indicate that the middle variant is tracking pretty closely, although slightly high. They’ve revised the numbers twice in 1996 and 1998, and both times they reduced the projected population.

The worst offenders for bad predictions BY FAR have been the organizations John John supports. ZPG, The Club of Rome, Paul Erlich, and other environmental doomsters were, in 1970, predicting global famine in the 1980’s, massive shortages of oil and steel in the 1990’s, and worldwide starvation by the turn of the century. The Club of Rome predicted a global population of 20 billion by the early 2100’s.

One constant thread throughout all of this is that whenever predictions have been wrong, they have almost always been wrong on the pessimistic side, because the best models can only extrapolate from current trends, and therefore cannot cope with breakthroughs in technology, contraception, exploration, etc. They also have a hard time dealing with discontinuities in linear trends. We’re in the middle of such a discontinuity now. The ‘fertility transition’ that is taking place in the 3rd world was unexpected, and caught almost all demographers off guard.