# 6 million were killed during the Holocoust is innacurate... **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 2, 2003, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054 "2003-06-02T02:52:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Road\_Rash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@Road\_Rash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Road_Rash)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/1 "2003-06-02T02:52:08Z")
…the true number was likely closer to 20 million. I was watching 60 Minutes earlier tonight. I did not see the complete story, but pieces of it, due to laundry and general cleaning of my environment. On 60 Minutes, they were talking about the collective guilt and accomodations that Germany was taking to remember the Holocoust and its victims. They interviewed members of parliament, including the youngest (who impressed me very much), and one who feels that Germany has done more than enough accomodation (I respect his right to an opinion). What bothered me was that 60 Minutes kept bringing up the 6 million number. Even when I visited the local Holocoust museum in Houston, although the emphasis was on the Jews, the guide did not forget to emphasize they were not alone. The Roma lost great numbers, as well as other “undesirables.” If anything, Germany might have got off a lightly for WWII. I certainly mean to take nothing away from this trial to Judaism, but I sometimes wonder why the other groups are often left out? Especially the Roma. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/2 "2003-06-02T03:07:01Z")
Why is this in IMHO? The number I have always heard is 10 million, including 6 million Jews. I do not think it is some secret that the other 4 million were mostly Roma, communists and other political dissidents, Jehovah’s Witnesses, gays, and Slavs. ---
**Author:** ![Dodeca\_Aww\_Hell\_With\_It](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dodeca\_Aww\_Hell\_With\_It](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dodeca_Aww_Hell_With_It)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/3 "2003-06-02T03:10:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Road Rash \* > \*\*…the true number was likely closer to 20 million. > \*\* Actually, it is closer to 11 million, of which approximately 6 million were Jews. ---
**Author:** ![jesleigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/58f4c7/32.png) [@jesleigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jesleigh)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/4 "2003-06-02T03:13:32Z")
It was a heck of a lot whatever number you use. ---
**Author:** ![Road\_Rash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@Road\_Rash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Road_Rash)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/5 "2003-06-02T03:20:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kyla \* > \*\*Why is this in IMHO? > > \*\* I felt it was the most appropriate place for it. It is MY opinion, Junior moderater wanna-be. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/6 "2003-06-02T03:25:35Z")
Sheesh. That wasn’t a rhetorical question, I literally want to know why this thread is in IMHO. I didn’t see anything that I could really agree or disagree with in the OP. Er, many people were killed in the Holocaust. In my humble opinion, it was bad. ---
**Author:** ![Road\_Rash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@Road\_Rash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Road_Rash)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/7 "2003-06-02T03:29:34Z")
Might it be better in debates? ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/8 "2003-06-02T03:39:18Z")
Well, I’m not a moderator. I dunno. It’s an interesting topic, no matter the forum. Why do we remember the Jews more than anyone else? Well, because more Jews than everyone else put together were killed. Because the Nazi anti-Semitic rhetoric was so vile. Because the millions of Jews in industrialized nations have the resources to keep the memory alive, as opposed to the Roma, who are primarily impoverished and are still treated like shit whever they go. Because the Holocaust directly led to the creation of the State of Israel, so we have a small, troubled little piece of land in the Middle East that reminds us of the 6 million murdered Jews every time it’s mentioned in the news. We’d likely feel the same way if the Roma had been able to found their own nation immediately after WWII as well. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/9 "2003-06-02T03:54:08Z")
Per R.J. Rummel, in his fairly exhaustive study _Death By Government_, the grim total of Nazi Democide is actually roughly **20,946,000** , partially broken down as follows (rounded for brevity): Jews: 5.3m Eastern Slavs: 10.5m Gypsies/Roma: 0.3m Prisoners of war: 3.1m Misc other categories, from all nations in occupied Europe, round out the remainder. Official estimates actually run from 15,000,000 to 31,600,000 depending on source, but Rummel is able to find justification for just under 21 million. He cites over 70 pages of references to document his position. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/10 "2003-06-02T04:01:17Z")
Since this is a statement of fact and not a poll, I’m moving it to MPSIMS. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/11 "2003-06-02T05:08:22Z")
The 6 million number always refers to Jews (who do receive the bulk of the emphasis), not as an overall number. I don’t really know what the accepted total is - 20 million is higher than most estimates I’ve seen. Likewise, the un-rounded figure I’d seen for the Jews was a bit under 5.8 million… clearly, a lot remains unknown here. Still, I guess we know enough. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/12 "2003-06-02T06:51:06Z")
Hmmm. _Most_ estimates I’ve seen from _historians_ cite 20 million. Rummel isn’t the only one, he’s just done the largest and longest published studies concentrating on the subject that I am aware of. Robert Conquest, for instance, also states the 20 million figure IIRC, while Richard Rhodes (author on subjects like the SS Einsatzgruppen, among others) cites a higher total of around 30 million. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/13 "2003-06-02T06:57:05Z")
**Tranq** , do you know of somewhere that has those numbers for people like me who’d like to look at them just in case this sort of thing comes up in my daily (non-SDMB) travels? ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/14 "2003-06-02T07:22:35Z")
The other point about the number of Jews being what we remember is that as bad as the other numbers are, they don’t represent an attempt to systematically eliminate a people group. The Roma were “trash”, and the Slavs and the POWs were inconvenient to have around, and were easier to kill than deal with, but the Jews were hunted down pointedly. It’s that pointed hunting that gives Hitler the huge edge in the creepiness department. Stalin was controlling and evil and murderous, but Hitler wins the demon-freaky contest. Ironically, many POWs in the USSR would have fought Stalin’s troops if they had been allowed, because he had treated them so badly, but the SS wouldn’t stand for it. They just mostly killed the POWs of “other races”. Maybe this is then another reason the Germans didn’t hold onto their gains in the USSR. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/15 "2003-06-02T07:25:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Since this is a statement of fact and not a poll, I’m moving it to MPSIMS. Perhaps we should rename the forum to MPSIMS&ONONST (Mundane Pointless Stuff I Must Share & Occasionally Non-mundane Or Non-pointless Stuff, Too). But that might be a tad too much… > [@](#): > > Why do we remember the Jews more than anyone else? I’ve always felt that it was because that the Jews, no matter what they did, were singled out, while communists were in opposition to the ideals of fascism and gypsies were (in the mind of psychopathic murdering monsters) counter-productive to the society that Hitler wanted. 'Course, it’s an insignificant distinction, I imagine. I applaud Germany’s efforts to learn from the mistakes of one of the worst periods in human history. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/16 "2003-06-02T07:38:55Z")
Sorry, **'punha**. The closes I have for you is a US$20 three-pound book. On the plus side, it’s full of numbers on everything from pre-20th century mass killings & democide to Marshal Tito’s run at the championship. The book is [Death By Government](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1560009276/qid=1054539578/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-6447777-5220155?v=glance&s=books) and is disturbingly good reading. If that’s not sufficient, you might also look up [The Black Book Of Communism](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0674076087/qid%3D1054539751/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr_11_1/102-6447777-5220155), an even larger, heavier, and slightly more expensive book. The second is limited in it’s focus to nominally communist states, but it’s by a collection of European authors, and provides an interesting change of perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Sn-man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sn-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sn-man)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/17 "2003-06-02T12:52:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \* > \*\ ***Tranq** , do you know of somewhere that has those numbers for people like me who’d like to look at them just in case this sort of thing comes up in my daily (non-SDMB) travels? \*\* **iampunha** , here is a site for democide statistics [http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE5.HTM](http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE5.HTM) ---
**Author:** ![Sn-man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sn-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sn-man)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/18 "2003-06-02T12:56:07Z")
Back in Oct of 2002, I saved this information off an earlier SDMB thread or a web page that I cannot find right now. Democide Statistics 1. USSR, 62 million deaths, 1917-'87 2. People’s Republic of China, 35 million, 1949-'87 3. Germany, 21 million, 1933-'45 4. Nationalist China, 10 million, 1928-'49 5. Japan, 6 million, 1936-'45 6. Pre-revolutionary Chinese communists (“Mao Soviets”), 3.5 million, 1923-'49 7. Cambodia, 2 million, 1975-'79 8. Turkey (Armenian genocide), 1.9 million, 1909-'18 9. Vietnam, 1.7 million, 1945-'87 10. Poland, 1.6 million, 1945-'48 11. Pakistan, 1.5 million, 1958-'87 12. Yugoslavia, 1.1 million, 1944-'87 Three additional “suspected mega-murderers,” as Rummel puts it, are: North Korea, 1.7 million deaths, 1948-'87 Mexico, 1.4 million, 1900-'20 Czarist Russia, 1.1 million, 1900-'17 Rummel goes on to identify the top nine killers: (1) Joseph Stalin, 43 million dead, 1929-'53; (2) Mao Tse-tung, 38 million, 1923-'76; (3) Adolf Hitler, 21 million, 1933-'45; (4) Chiang Kai-shek, 10 million, 1921-'48; (5) Vladimir Lenin, 4 million, 1917-'24; (6) Tojo Hideki (Japan), 4 million, 1941-'45; (7) Pol Pot, 2.4 million, 1968-'87; (8) Yahya Khan (Pakistan), 1.5 million, 1971; (9) Josip Broz, better known as Marshal Tito (Yugoslavia), 1.2 million, 1941-'80. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/19 "2003-06-02T16:24:31Z")
Let us not forget the psychiatrically labeled. We were early targets of the “cleansing”. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/20 "2003-06-02T16:24:34Z")
When Amnesty and the other like-minded organizations get things sorted out, we’ll probably be adding Saddam Hussien’s name to the list. Depending on whom you listen to, he’ll likely exceed Josip Broz, and may even give Pol Pot a run for his money. He’s certainly earned his place on the list in _at least_ spot #10, though the horror in the Congo will most likely exceed Iraq’s total fatality count. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054.md?page=2)